From can.general Tue Apr 6 12:44:03 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!utnut!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!uwovax.uwo.ca!singer From: singer@uwovax.uwo.ca Subject: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry:Que Bono? Organization: University of Western Ont, London Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1993 19:20:52 GMT Message-ID: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Sender: news@julian.uwo.ca (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: hydra.uwo.ca Lines: 6 Yes, who profits from the establishment of the racisim and sexism industry on your campus? Ask how much in direct and indirect costs; ask about the provision of government contracts to discover enclaves of gender harassment and race harassment; ask how much money has been withdrawn from library services, reductions in purchases of serials and books, to pay for these self-interested bureaucracies.-- From can.general Tue Apr 6 12:44:03 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!cdf.toronto.edu!g9rwaigh From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr4.193739.17365@cdf.toronto.edu> Sender: news@cdf.toronto.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: eddie.cdf Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1993 19:37:39 GMT In article <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes: >Yes, who profits from the establishment of the racisim and sexism industry on >your campus? Ask how much in direct and indirect costs; ask about the >provision of government contracts to discover enclaves of gender harassment and >race harassment; ask how much money has been withdrawn from library services, >reductions in purchases of serials and books, to pay for these self-interested >bureaucracies.-- singer@uwovax.uwo.ca, why do you keep posting these hostile postings about people opposed to racism and sexism without giving a solid reason for your discontent? Do you deny that there is a problem with racism and sexism? Ro -- Rosemary Waigh Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca University of Toronto "Five percent of the people in the world consume one-third of its resources... and produce almost half the non-organic waste...those people are us." Adbusters From can.general Tue Apr 6 12:47:05 1993 Path: utcsri!ois.db.toronto.edu!fche Newsgroups: can.general From: fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> cc: fche@db.toronto.edu Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> <1993Apr4.193739.17365@cdf.toronto.edu> Date: 6 Apr 93 16:40:32 GMT Lines: 27 In article <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes: >Yes, who profits from the establishment of the racisim and sexism >industry on your campus? Ask how much in direct and indirect costs; ask >about the provision of government contracts to discover enclaves of >gender harassment and race harassment; ask how much money has been >withdrawn from library services, reductions in purchases of serials and >books, to pay for these self-interested bureaucracies.-- g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes: >singer@uwovax.uwo.ca, why do you keep posting these hostile postings about >people opposed to racism and sexism without giving a solid reason for your >discontent? > >Do you deny that there is a problem with racism and sexism? Rosemary, ``singer''s complaint seems pretty clear to me. He claims that the money spent on funding groups dedicated to finding ever more examples of racism and sexism would be better spent on the areas where funding has been cut. Do you deny that general underfunding is a worse problem than rare sexism and racism? -- -- Frank Ch. Eigler -- Comp Eng -- -- (I'm Brian!) From can.general Tue Apr 6 13:16:37 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!cdf.toronto.edu!g9rwaigh From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr6.164919.7504@cdf.toronto.edu> Sender: news@cdf.toronto.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: fjords.cdf Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> <1993Apr4.193739.17365@cdf.toronto.edu> <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 16:49:19 GMT In article <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") writes: >g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes: >>singer@uwovax.uwo.ca, why do you keep posting these hostile postings about >>people opposed to racism and sexism without giving a solid reason for your >>discontent? >> >>Do you deny that there is a problem with racism and sexism? > > >Rosemary, ``singer''s complaint seems pretty clear to me. He claims >that the money spent on funding groups dedicated to finding ever more >examples of racism and sexism would be better spent on the areas where >funding has been cut. How much money is actually spent on the alleged "racism and sexism industry"? > >Do you deny that general underfunding is a worse problem than >rare sexism and racism? 1. Would cutting programmes to combat racism and sexism have any significant effect on underfunding? 2. If disabled students are rare, does that mean we shouldn't spend money providing the services they need? I don't think so. Similarly, even if sexism/racism are rare, their victims should be provided with the services they need. -- Rosemary Waigh Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca University of Toronto "Five percent of the people in the world consume one-third of its resources... and produce almost half the non-organic waste...those people are us." Adbusters From can.general Tue Apr 6 14:04:30 1993 Path: utcsri!ois.db.toronto.edu!fche Newsgroups: can.general From: fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <93Apr6.132637edt.42055@ois.db.toronto.edu> cc: fche@db.toronto.edu Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> <1993Apr4.193739.17365@cdf.toronto.edu> <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> <1993Apr6.164919.7504@cdf.toronto.edu> Date: 6 Apr 93 17:26:55 GMT Lines: 31 g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes: >How much money is actually spent on the alleged "racism and sexism industry"? > [...] >1. Would cutting programmes to combat racism and sexism have any significant > effect on underfunding? Excellent questions, and they should indeed be considered by those in power when they distribute money. I recall the Ontario NDP government has spent several hundred million dollars on employment equity and other such programs. The question to be answered is: are these programs making enough headway toward reducing real racism and sexism to justify such an amount, or are they merely funding a beaurocratic machine that seeks mainly to self-propagate? >2. If disabled students are rare, does that mean we shouldn't spend money > providing the services they need? I don't think so. Similarly, even > if sexism/racism are rare, their victims should be provided with the > services they need. This is a skewed analogy. The government (I hope) does not pay people to help identify disabled people; such folks seek out the agencies for support. The government does pay people to help identify "victims of racism or sexism". The question is not *whether* to help real victims ("Yes, of course."), but rather is an expensive social "victim-identification" machinery *necessary* to this end? -- -- Frank Ch. Eigler -- Comp Eng -- -- (I'm Brian!) From can.general Tue Apr 6 17:27:47 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!cs.ubc.ca!news.UVic.CA!sol.UVic.CA!klassen From: klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry:Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr5.182833.3666@sol.UVic.CA> Sender: news@sol.UVic.CA Nntp-Posting-Host: sol.uvic.ca Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 18:28:33 GMT Lines: 7 In article <93Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> "Ben" writes: > Yes, who profits from the establishment of the racisim [sic] > and sexism industry on your campus? Ah, another one of those "when did you stop beating your spouse?" questions. To try to answer either question would only add creditability to the question! From can.general Tue Apr 6 19:22:17 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!cdf.toronto.edu!g9rwaigh From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr6.214720.23418@cdf.toronto.edu> Sender: news@cdf.toronto.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: eddie.cdf Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility References: <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> <1993Apr6.164919.7504@cdf.toronto.edu> <93Apr6.132637edt.42055@ois.db.toronto.edu> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 21:47:20 GMT In article <93Apr6.132637edt.42055@ois.db.toronto.edu> fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") writes: >g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes: >>How much money is actually spent on the alleged "racism and sexism industry"? >> [...] >>1. Would cutting programmes to combat racism and sexism have any significant >> effect on underfunding? > >Excellent questions, and they should indeed be considered by those in >power when they distribute money. I recall the Ontario NDP government >has spent several hundred million dollars on employment equity and other >such programs. ... > >>2. If disabled students are rare, does that mean we shouldn't spend money >> providing the services they need? I don't think so. Similarly, even >> if sexism/racism are rare, their victims should be provided with the >> services they need. > >This is a skewed analogy. The government (I hope) does not pay people >to help identify disabled people; such folks seek out the agencies for >support. The government does pay people to help identify "victims of >racism or sexism". The question is not *whether* to help real victims >("Yes, of course."), but rather is an expensive social >"victim-identification" machinery *necessary* to this end? I think before this discussion can go anywhere, the opponents of the racism and sexism "industry" are going to have to clarify what specifically they mean by it. The original poster vaguely referred to a racism and sexism industry *on campus*; Frank is now talking about the Ontario government's employment equity programme, and "victim-identification machinery", whatever that means. -- Rosemary Waigh Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca University of Toronto "Five percent of the people in the world consume one-third of its resources... and produce almost half the non-organic waste...those people are us." Adbusters From can.general Wed Apr 7 13:07:46 1993 Xref: utcsri can.general:16470 soc.college:17016 Newsgroups: can.general,soc.college Path: utcsri!rpi!uwm.edu!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!r-node!ndallen From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry:Que Bono? References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 03:43:46 GMT Message-ID: <1993Apr7.034346.26269@r-node.hub.org> Lines: 10 In article <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes: >Yes, who profits from the establishment of the racisim and sexism industry on >your campus? It is better to spend money on prevention of racism and sexism than to have to pay damages to victims of those practices, and to lose the donations and legacies of people offended by a university which refuses to take adequate steps to end discrimination. -- Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada ndallen@r-node.hub.org From can.general Wed Apr 7 13:08:17 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!utnut!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!newshub.ariel.yorku.ca!cs911212 From: cs911212@ariel.yorku.ca (RICK DILORENZO) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr7.135338.17345@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> Originator: cs911212@g05.ariel.yorku.ca Sender: news@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca (USENET News System) Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada References: <1993Apr4.152052.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> <1993Apr4.193739.17365@cdf.toronto.edu> <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> Distribution: york Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 13:53:38 GMT g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes: > >Do you deny that there is a problem with racism and sexism? > fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") writes" >> >>Do you deny that general underfunding is a worse problem than >>rare sexism and racism? Do you deny that general overfunding (creation of debt) is a worse problem than general underfunding? From can.general Wed Apr 7 13:09:03 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!utnut!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!uwovax.uwo.ca!singer From: singer@uwovax.uwo.ca Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry:Cui Bono? Organization: University of Western Ont, London Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 14:39:11 GMT Message-ID: <1993Apr7.103911.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Sender: news@julian.uwo.ca (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: hydra.uwo.ca Lines: 14 Well and good, a poster says it is less expensive to prevent racial and other forms of discrimination at universities than to pay compensation afterward. I agree--if it exists. And so: do Canadian universities discriminate in their admission policies? UWO must discriminate positively: we have, I understand, about three times the the proportion of non-whites as found in the general population. Do we grade differentially? Show me. Do we refuse to appoint people of colour as chairs and deans? Come to UWO and see for yourself. We continued to be accused and when we ask for proof of NEGATIVE discrimination, what we hear repeated endlessly by our brilliant critics is: "racism is often denied and nebulous." (Quoted in the London Free Press, Aug 20, 1992.) Enough is enough. The only thing nebulous is the accusation. I suspect that most of the intellectually deficient arguments of the politically correct accusers reflect the poor education received in secondary schools as well as excessive dependence on television. -- From can.general Wed Apr 7 17:35:31 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!cdf.toronto.edu!g9rwaigh From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Cui Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr7.192915.12554@cdf.toronto.edu> Sender: news@cdf.toronto.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: eddie.cdf Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility References: <1993Apr7.103911.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 19:29:15 GMT In article <1993Apr7.103911.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> singer@uwovax.uwo.ca writes: >And so: do Canadian universities discriminate in their >admission policies? UWO must discriminate positively: we have, I understand, >about three times the the proportion of non-whites as found in the general >population. Note that this is not a valid comparison, since the percentage of non-whites in the 'general population' may be lower than the percentage of non-whites who are of the usual age to go to university. -- Rosemary Waigh Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca University of Toronto "Five percent of the people in the world consume one-third of its resources... and produce almost half the non-organic waste...those people are us." Adbusters From can.general Tue Apr 13 12:46:24 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!utnut!torn!spool.mu.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!xenitec!mongrel!amdunn From: amdunn@mongrel.UUCP (Andrew M. Dunn) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Organization: A. Dunn Systems Corporation, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 12:57:43 GMT Message-ID: <1993Apr12.125743.5936@mongrel.UUCP> References: <93Apr6.124015edt.42058@ois.db.toronto.edu> <1993Apr6.164919.7504@cdf.toronto.edu> <93Apr6.132637edt.42055@ois.db.toronto.edu> Lines: 37 In article <93Apr6.132637edt.42055@ois.db.toronto.edu> fche@db.toronto.edu ("Frank Ch. Eigler") writes: > > >>2. If disabled students are rare, does that mean we shouldn't spend money >> providing the services they need? ... > >This is a skewed analogy. The government (I hope) does not pay people >to help identify disabled people; such folks seek out the agencies for >support. It would be just like our government to go around and look for disabled people. I'd be willing to bet that several government departments are required to seek out statistics on our disabled members of society. >The government does pay people to help identify "victims of >racism or sexism". The question is not *whether* to help real victims >("Yes, of course."), but rather is an expensive social >"victim-identification" machinery *necessary* to this end? Well, if the inexpensive one (these people seeking out the agencies) doesn't work, I guess it _is_ necessary. Victims of racism and sexism are a lot harder to identify than disabled persons. They sometimes are not aware it happened to them (most disabled persons, on the other hand, are quite aware of their situation). If you don't know you've been hard done by, why on earth would you get up and "seek out the agencies for support"? Andy -- :-------------------------------------------------------------------------: : Andy Dunn or : : "AT&T thinks Usenet is an Underground organization" - are we really? : :-------------------------------------------------------------------------: From can.general Tue Apr 13 12:46:43 1993 Newsgroups: can.general Path: utcsri!utnut!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!nexus.yorku.ca!tony From: tony@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis) Subject: Re: Campus Race-and-Sex Industry: Que Bono? Message-ID: <1993Apr13.111152.3724@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> Sender: news@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca (USENET News System) Organization: York University References: <1993Apr12.125743.5936@mongrel.UUCP> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:11:52 GMT Andrew M. Dunn : > Victims of racism and sexism are a lot harder to identify than > disabled persons. They sometimes are not aware it happened to > them .. Victims of witchcraft are even harder to identify. They also are sometimes not aware that a hex has been put on them. -- tony@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, Toronto, Canada