25 April 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 33 of the trial. April 24, 2001. Transcript delayed due to outage of e-mail of Court Reporters Office.
See other transcripts: usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
4604
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7)98CR1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 March 29, 2001
9:50 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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25
4605
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
SAM A. SCHMIDT
7 JOSHUA L. DRATEL
MARSHALL A. MINTZ
8 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
9 ANTHONY L. RICCO
EDWARD D. WILFORD
10 CARL J. HERMAN
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
11
FREDRICK H. COHN
12 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
13 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
14 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
15 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
16
17 (In open court; jury not present)
18 THE COURT: We are missing Mr. Schmidt. Mr. Baugh,
19 welcome back.
20 MR. BAUGH: Thank, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: We have the argument on the government's
22 motion to quash the Department of Defense subpoenas scheduled
23 for tomorrow at 4:30.
24 MR. BAUGH: I thought it was today at 4:30.
25 THE COURT: No, it moved until tomorrow at 4:30. But
4606
1 I particularly note in reading the affidavit --
2 MR. COHN: Your Honor, once again we're
3 interpreterless but --
4 MR. BAUGH: No, there is one.
5 MR. COHN: They just started, okay, thank you. I'm
6 sorry.
7 THE COURT: In reading the affidavit of Stuart Aly,
8 the acting deputy general counsel of the Department of
9 Defense, about his offers to cooperate and his efforts to
10 communicate with you, and unanswered telephone calls, and I'm
11 aware of the fact that your routine has been disrupted by a
12 medical problem, which I hope is now resolved, but I just want
13 to make sure that before we hear the oral argument on that
14 motion to quash, you will have returned his telephone call and
15 will have made good faith efforts to consentually resolve the
16 issue.
17 MR. BAUGH: If I might, your Honor, I don't know if
18 it's, I don't know if it's his rank or more, and I mean no
19 disrespect to the man, Mr. Aly, but as I read his letter his
20 letter encouraged me to call him so that I could explain the
21 relevance and my defense theory so he could determine the
22 relevance prior to the time he presented it, and I thought
23 that was the issue that you were going to resolve.
24 THE COURT: Let's not waste extraordinarily precious
25 time on frivolous issues.
4607
1 MR. BAUGH: I wasn't aware it was frivolous issues.
2 THE COURT: Let me just say, obviously, the ultimate
3 decision with respect to whether or not the material has to be
4 produced or whether the subpoena is to be quashed is a
5 decision made not by the Department of the Army, but by this
6 Court. I'm fully aware of that.
7 The response has said, for example, some of this
8 material is readily available on the Internet, and that if
9 they had a better concept of what it is that you need and
10 want, and they had a discussion with you, the matter might be
11 resolved.
12 Sir, if you're not willing to take the time and make
13 the effort to resolve this, then I assure you that the time
14 devoted to the motion to quash will be very brief.
15 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, if I might --
16 THE COURT: I really don't want to discuss this
17 further. I'm just saying to you that I think that the
18 response made is one which says, if I may quote --
19 MR. BAUGH: I have read the letter, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Well --
21 MR. BAUGH: And I object to the Court's assuming,
22 one, this is frivolous. Number two, that my discussing with
23 the member of the --
24 THE COURT: Sir, whether you respond to that call or
25 not is a decision that you will make.
4608
1 MR. BAUGH: No, I --
2 THE COURT: The action I will take if you fail to
3 make any effort to consentually resolve it is a matter which I
4 will determine at the time. End of discussion.
5 MR. BAUGH: Then I would like to object on the record
6 to this Court referring to my client's constitutional rights
7 as frivolous, and that's what you're doing, and, further, if
8 by cutting me off so that you don't want to discuss this, this
9 is fine, and I will as soon as we finish this witness, I'll
10 leave, and within the confines of being able to discuss with
11 the Department of Defense person I will, if that's what you're
12 telling me I have to do in order to protect this man. But,
13 no, I do not think this is frivolous. I think this is a
14 significant issue. And, further, if the United States is
15 willing to agree that what I get off the Internet will be of
16 the same validity as if I get it through the Department of
17 Defense and they are not going to contest it, that's fine.
18 THE COURT: Have you attempted to ascertain that? I
19 have already indicated an awareness that the Federal Rules of
20 Evidence don't apply. Is your concern that if you get the
21 material off the Internet rather than from the Department of
22 Defense you'll be faced with and authenticity objection?
23 MR. BAUGH: No, your Honor. I will explain this.
24 It's not an authenticity problem. It is if it comes from the
25 Department of Defense it cannot be impeached by the
4609
1 government. If it comes from the Internet the government
2 might contest it. I'm not just trying to get the information.
3 I'm trying to get the most reliable information so that it
4 will stand up under cross-examination.
5 THE COURT: Thank you. Is there anything before we
6 bring in the jury?
7 MR. WILFORD: Yes, your Honor, there is. Yesterday
8 during the questioning of Agent Yacone it came to light in the
9 questioning of Mr. Fitzgerald I believe on redirect that two
10 Americans were killed and 16 injured as a result of a mortar
11 attack. I'm moving to strike that testimony on behalf of
12 Mr. Odeh on 403 grounds, your Honor. It has no relevancy.
13 The fact that Americans were killed or other Americans were
14 killed is outside the scope of the indictment, and it really
15 has no bearing, but it is highly prejudicial.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, two responses. First,
17 that was a response to cross-examination bringing out that
18 there were other attacks including ambushes, by Mr. Wilford.
19 Second, the cross was designed as I understood it to show that
20 the Aideed clan had done those things that in fact there were
21 ambushes and mortar attacks and mortars are weapons that al
22 Qaeda has trained people in.
23 The reason we got into the number of casualties was
24 Mr. Schmidt objected to his competence and personal knowledge.
25 I was simply completing the record that there were ambushes,
4610
1 land mine attacks and the attacks that he described when it
2 became a hearsay objection or competence objection to describe
3 what he saw. The indictment did not limit the attacks of the
4 American soldiers to RPGs. It says that Al Quaeda trained
5 people and trained others to attack Americans and, in fact I
6 believe there was testimony from Kherchtou earlier that he
7 learned that people tried to put an explosive device near the
8 port.
9 So there is nothing in the indictment that excludes
10 land mines versus other attacks. It was a fair response to
11 the cross and the detail was a response to objection to
12 competence.
13 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, if I may, with respect to
14 the fact that a mortar attack occurred is one thing, but to
15 bring in the fact there were additional dead Americans and
16 wounded Americans, I think is highly prejudicial in this
17 particular case, and I think that if you do the balancing
18 between the probative value of that particular evidence and
19 the prejudicial impact, that you have to come down on the side
20 of it being too prejudicial to remain in the record, and I ask
21 the Court once again to strike that particular portion.
22 I didn't ask the Court to strike the testimony about
23 there being a mortar attack understanding Mr. Fitzgerald had
24 to have some leeway to respond to cross and the Court allowed
25 that. However, the additional information dealing with the
4611
1 actual deaths and injuries I think go a little bit too far
2 under 403. I'm asking the Court to strike that particular
3 portion of the testimony.
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Denied.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, very dry testimony. No
7 pictures. There was no -- really what was grievous wounds to
8 that person.
9 THE COURT: I know. And calling the jury's attention
10 to it and directing that it be stricken would, I think,
11 probably be counterproductive. That, however, is not the
12 basis of my ruling.
13 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: As to that, your Honor, the one thing
15 that was relevant and important was the date of the last
16 casualties being in October.
17 THE COURT: That question was asked and answered.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: I don't want that stricken.
19 THE COURT: Excuse me?
20 MR. SCHMIDT: I just don't want that the date of the
21 last casualties stricken.
22 THE COURT: No, I'm not striking any of it.
23 MR. BAUGH: When you get a moment this morning I'd
24 like to speak to you in chambers with one representative from
25 the government about a medical situation on scheduling,
4612
1 whenever it's convenient to you any time this morning.
2 THE COURT: Why don't we have the jury come in and
3 why don't we step inside. I want the reporter.
4 (Pages 4613 through 4614 sealed)
5 (Continued on next page)
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4615
1 (In open court; jury present)
2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. You
3 remember that when we adjourned yesterday we were in the midst
4 of listening to some tapes as part of the defense presentation
5 on behalf of the defendant El Hage. We're going to interrupt
6 that. We will pick it up at a later point, but in order to
7 accommodate various interests we are going to interrupt the
8 case on behalf of the defendant El Hage, and proceed with the
9 defense case on behalf of the defendant Odeh.
10 There is no significance to the sequence in which
11 these things are being done. We're simply trying to make the
12 presentation to you as efficient and expeditious as possible.
13 Mr. Ricco.
14 MR. RICCO: Yes, your Honor.
15 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be calling some
16 witnesses, and we have like about 25 hours of reading -- no
17 it's a joke -- there is some reading, but most of it will be
18 witnesses.
19 Our first witness is Imam Siraj Wahhaj.
20 SIRAJ WAHHAJ,
21 called as a witness by the defendant,
22 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. RICCO:
25 Q Good morning, Imam.
4616
1 A Good morning.
2 Q We need you to speak into the mic.
3 A Okay.
4 Q Thank you very much. Imam, are you familiar with Masjid
5 At-Taqwa in Brooklyn?
6 A Yes, I am.
7 Q Can you explain to the jury how you're familiar with
8 Masjid At-Taqwa in Brooklyn?
9 A Yes. I'm the Imam or the leader of that particular
10 mosque.
11 Q And can you tell us a little bit about the neighborhood
12 that that mosque is in?
13 A It's an inner city, it's Bedford-Stuyvesant. A few years
14 ago it was surrounded by 15 crack houses, but we were
15 fortunate enough working with the authorities to get rid of
16 those drug houses, so now it's a residential business area.
17 Q Now, Imam, can you tell us first off, what is an Imam?
18 A Imam, if our religion were Judaism I would be call a
19 Rabbi, and if our religion was Christianity I would be called
20 a Minister. So the Imam is the head of the Muslim community,
21 is the religious head I guess you would call it.
22 Q Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about your educational
23 background?
24 A Yes. I graduated from the High School of music And Art,
25 seems like a thousand years ago. I went to New York
4617
1 University where I studied math education. 1978 I went to a
2 training program at the University of Saudi Arabia in Mecca,
3 studied Islamic studies.
4 Q And can you tell us about your employment background?
5 A Yes. I've been the Imam of this particular Masjid since
6 1980. In the beginning of my stay as the Imam I was also
7 working at a mental health clinic in Brownsville as a
8 therapist, recreational therapist at the Brownsville Ocean and
9 Mental Health Clinic. Before that, I was the Imam of a Masjid
10 Mohamed in Brooklyn, I think for about six years.
11 Q Your affiliation with Howard University?
12 A Yes, I taught a course of Islamic studies. I don't
13 remember the exact year, but I think maybe around '81, '82, in
14 that area.
15 Q Have you ever addressed the Congress of the United States?
16 A Yes. In fact, I was the first Muslim to give an
17 Invocation to the United States Congress and I believe that
18 was like 1991.
19 Q Can you share with us the various places that you have
20 lectured on the subject of Islam?
21 A Wow.
22 Q Just generally.
23 A I mean, you know, all throughout America, Canada,
24 throughout the world. I mean more specifics?
25 Q That's fine. And have you previously testified as an
4618
1 expert witness in the New Jersey state courts concerning
2 Islam?
3 A New Jersey State? I don't remember Jersey.
4 Q That's okay.
5 A Right.
6 Q Let's move to something you might be familiar with. You
7 previously testified as both a character witness and an expert
8 witness on religious terms in this very courthouse.
9 A I did in Jersey, you're right, I'm sorry. I just
10 remembered. I did. Yeah, I did about maybe ten, eleven years
11 ago. Yes, I did.
12 Q Okay. And getting back to my question. In fact, you
13 previously testified as both a character witness and an expert
14 witness on religious terms in this very courtroom.
15 A Yes.
16 Q In this courthouse approximately five years ago, is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, at this point I would like to
20 have Imam Wahhaj designated an expert witness on the subject
21 of Islam.
22 MR. BAUGH: Objection, your Honor, same objection
23 made previously by my co-counsel.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection.
25 THE COURT: The application is granted.
4619
1 MR. RICCO: Thank you very much, your Honor.
2 Q Now, Imam, I would like for you to take a few minutes to
3 explain just some Islamic terms to the jury.
4 A Okay.
5 Q Can you start by explaining to the jury what the term
6 Islam means?
7 A Yes. Literally Islam comes from an Arabic word, Aslama,
8 which means to submit, to submit to God, and also to be a
9 person of peace. Becoming peaceful by submitting to God,
10 peaceful with our, you know, your fellow human beings, et
11 cetera. Literally Islam means total submission to do the will
12 of God.
13 Q Okay. And in the Islamic faith what is the importance of
14 one, the Holy Koran; two, the principles of faith, and three,
15 the hadid and Prophet Mohammed?
16 A Yes. Muslims believe that God has sent revelations to
17 mankind. He sent the Torah to Prophet Moses. He sent the
18 Gospel to Jesus. And sent the Koran, which we believe to be
19 the last revelation to Prophet Mohammed, peace and blessing be
20 upon him.
21 As a Muslim, every Muslim must obey the Koran which
22 we believe to be the words of God, and then also every Muslim
23 is subjected to believe in God's last prophet, we believe
24 Prophet Mohammed. His teaching is collected on what is called
25 hadit, the hadit are the sayings and the actions of Prophet
4620
1 Mohammed. So Muslim has to obey God, Allah, and have to obey
2 by his messenger Mohamed, peace and blessing be upon him, and
3 must obey the Koran which, again, we believe to be the words
4 of God.
5 The faith in Islam, there are some requirements,
6 basic faith that a Muslim must believe in. Number one, they
7 must believe in God and they must believe not just in Prophet
8 Mohammed, but all of the prophets, Abraham, Noah, David,
9 Solomon, all of the prophets they must believe. And Muslims
10 must believe in every revelation that was sent by God, so
11 Muslims must believe in the Torah. They must believe in the
12 Gospel of Jesus. They must believe in the Psalms of David.
13 They must believe in every scripture that God sent to the
14 prophets. Muslims must believe in the hereafter, that there's
15 a life after death. Muslims must believe in the angels of
16 God. So these are things that are called the fundamental
17 articles of faith.
18 Q Imam, the Koran itself, does the Koran deal with legal
19 provisions known as Ahkam?
20 A Yes, absolutely, the Koran is filled with legal
21 provisions. What we can do, what we cannot do, yes.
22 Q How about legal obligations, badat? You have to forgive
23 my pronunciation.
24 A Yes. Religious obligations prayer, fasting, things like
25 that rememberance of God, call the thikra, or rememberance,
4621
1 rememberance of God, yes.
2 Q Does the Koran deal with what is legal and what is illegal
3 halal, and haram?
4 A For instance, I'm drinking this water, this is
5 permissible. Alcohol is not permissible. Drugs is not
6 permissible. So the Koran makes it very clear those things
7 that are halal permissible and those things that are haram,
8 not permissible.
9 Q Does the Koran deal with both criminal and civil law?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Does it deal with the hereafter?
12 A Absolutely.
13 Q Creation?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Revelation?
16 A Absolutely.
17 Q The relationship between Allah and man?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What about the relationship amongst human beings?
20 A All the time. It teaches us what should be the
21 relationship between a man and his wife, what should be the
22 relationship between even other religions. Muslims have a
23 special relationship with what is called the (nonEnglish), the
24 people of the books, Jews and Christians. It teaches us a
25 relationship between our neighbors whether believers or
4622
1 nonbelievers, so all throughout the Koran it teaches us
2 relationships with other human beings and even in fact, the
3 creation itself, our environment.
4 Q Imam, are you familiar with the term bayat?
5 A Yes, bayat.
6 Q Can you explain to the jury what the Islamic definition of
7 the term bayat is?
8 A Yes. In Islamic terminology the head of the Muslim uma or
9 nation, 1400 years ago was Prophet Mohammed and the people
10 took bayat to him. That is, they actually literally shook his
11 hand and gave a pledge of allegiance. This pledge of
12 allegiance is given to the really the head of Islamic state.
13 After the death of the Prophet, we had what is called the
14 kalifa or the head of the Muslim community, and this bayat
15 also was given to the head of the Muslim community, and the
16 first kalifa after Prophet Mohammed was a named Abu Bakkr so
17 that tradition has continued.
18 Q Now, are you a leader in the Muslim community in Brooklyn?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do the brothers and sisters who attend Masjid At-Taqwa, do
21 they give bayat to Imam Siraj?
22 A No, no. I'm just a little guy. I'm not head of the
23 Muslim state. I'm just a very, very small guy. And you know,
24 part of taking bayat, let me tell you the significance of
25 that, because the leader is responsible for the people, and
4623
1 when the people take bayat to the leader, and that leader
2 protects them, if there is anyone in the community who needed
3 money, who needed social services, that head would have to
4 give them that. So bayat is two way. It's not people just
5 taking allegiance to the leader but the leader providing the
6 resources that that, those people need.
7 Q And then what is in turn the responsibility of the leader
8 to the people who are giving bayat?
9 A That's my point, to actually take care of them. For
10 instance, you know, even in my case, even before I came here
11 today I was in my office and a brother called me and said he
12 needed to borrow a hundred dollars. So I told him to meet me,
13 you know, when I come back from court, to meet me in the
14 Masjid and even though he's not in bayat to me, but I feel
15 responsible as the leader to help take care of the
16 congregation. But when you take bayat, that is a very, you
17 know, legal term, and the responsibility of that leader to
18 absolutely take care of the congregation and to protect them.
19 I shouldn't say congregation, but to the what we call uma
20 which you call nation.
21 Q Okay.
22 A Now, similar to -- I'm sorry.
23 Q That's all right.
24 A You know, it's similar to in a sense you know a president.
25 When you know we have in this country social services. It's
4624
1 the responsibility of the leader when people cannot take care
2 of themselves to take care of them. That become the
3 responsibility of that kalifa. When the nation is attacked,
4 the responsibility of the commander in chief to defend the
5 nation so that kalifa also have the responsibility to defend
6 that nation, so it's two ways.
7 Q Okay. What is the importance, if any, of the religious
8 authority and religious scholarship in Islamic life?
9 A It's very important. You know, we have to guide our lives
10 by knowledge and not by ignorance. So you know I told you in
11 my resum‚ that I went and I studied. I studied Islam because
12 I don't want to misguide people, and I want to make sure that
13 when I talk that we guide the people from the Koran and from
14 the tradition of Prophet Mohamed. Likewise, its very critical
15 that the leader of the Muslims be well educated so that we'll
16 guide the people, not misguide them. It's extremely
17 important.
18 Q Is it a common practice in Islam for people to seek out
19 religious authority or opinion?
20 A Yes. You know, everyday we confront issues, and some of
21 the issues today are new for us. 1400 years ago there was no
22 question about you know organ transplants, for instance, so
23 typically a Muslim might want to know, well, what is the
24 position of Islam about, you know, heart transplants and liver
25 transplants and things like that. So it is always encouraged
4625
1 for those who don't know to seek knowledge from those who do
2 know.
3 Q Are you familiar with the term fatwa?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What is a fatwa?
6 A Yes. Fatwa is a legal opinion among the scholars about a
7 difficult issue. I'll give an example. Nowhere in the Koran
8 does it mention smoking marijuana, so the question is, is it
9 permissible to smoke marijuana? And in the Koran while it
10 doesn't mention marijuana, the Prophet never mentioned
11 marijuana, but Allah mentioned in the Koran what is called
12 hamra. Hamra means you could say it means wine, which you can
13 also say it means intoxicant. So our scholars have said
14 according to the word of the Prophet anything that intoxicates
15 is hamra, so, therefore, the fatwa is given that whether it's
16 marijuana or cocaine or heroin, it's illegal.
17 Q Now, Imam Siraj, when a Muslim seeks a fatwa is that
18 Muslim obligated to question his leader or must that Muslim
19 follow the leader in blind faith?
20 A It is absolutely against the religion of the Islam to
21 follow anyone blindly. You see one of the important verses in
22 the Koran, I'll just give and English translation. Oh, you
23 who you believe, obey Allah, obey the Messenger, and those
24 charged with authority among you. If you differ with anything
25 refer back to Allah and the Messenger if it is you believe in
4626
1 Allah on the last day.
2 Now what does that mean? That means that when our
3 religious leaders or anyone, even our parents give us, you
4 know, a verdict that that verdict must be substantiated by the
5 words of Allah, by the words of God as they appear in the
6 Koran, and the words of his messenger Mohammed as they appear
7 in the hadit.
8 So, you know, blind following goes against Islam. I
9 give an example of something happened in history. Prophet
10 Mohammed sent a group of people and appointed a leader among
11 them and he told them to obey the leader. And at some point
12 they were out and the leader became angry at them, and asked
13 them, he said, did the Prophet say to obey me? They say, yes.
14 He said, build a fire. So they built a fire. And then he
15 said, jump in the fire. And so they like looking around like
16 I'm not jumping in this fire.
17 So and when the word came back to the Prophet, the
18 Prophet said (nonEnglish). Had they gone in that fire they
19 never would have come out, for obedience is only in that which
20 is right, which is just. So definitely there can be no taklid
21 in Arabic, it's called blind following, never. The only one
22 that we absolutely obey is Allah, and we absolutely obey his
23 messenger Mohammed, peace and blessing be upon him.
24 Q Now, the Koran is made up of surus or chapters. Are there
25 particular surus in the Koran that encourage Muslims to
4627
1 question authority?
2 A Well, yes, yeah, all throughout the Koran. I think one
3 that I can remember chapter I think 459, if I'm not mistaken.
4 Q Chapter 4, verse 59?
5 A I think so. Or it's 549. I always get them confused.
6 But it's in there again the verse that I just recited, obey
7 Allah and obey the Messenger and conditionally everyone else,
8 conditionally. So there is verses in the Koran or verses like
9 that.
10 Q Okay. Now you just mentioned parents giving instructions
11 and then following Allah. Oftentimes we hear the term
12 Islamically correct. What does that mean?
13 A Yes. Islamically correct means that it's correct
14 according to the Koran, according to the Prophet Mohammed.
15 That's what it means, Islamically correct.
16 Q Okay. Imam, I want you to explain to the jury a term
17 called jihad.
18 Before that, your Honor, at this point I would like
19 to put into evidence Odeh A4, Odeh B4, Odeh C4, and Odeh D4.
20 MR. FITZGERALD: No objection.
21 MR. RICCO: No objection from the government and
22 these will be --
23 THE COURT: Received.
24 MR. RICCO: -- we'll explain later what they are. I
25 would like to read a part of --
4628
1 (Defendant's Exhibits Odeh A4, Odeh B4, Odeh C4, and
2 Odeh D4 received in evidence)
3 MR. BAUGH: Excuse me, your Honor. Are these items
4 already in evidence?
5 (Pause)
6 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, we would have a continuing
7 objection to the statements.
8 THE COURT: I don't understand what that's a
9 continuing objection to. If you want to write it out, fine,
10 you can do that.
11 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, could I have a continuing
12 objection? I can get it ruled on later or I will write it
13 out. Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Write it out.
15 (Pause)
16 MR. BAUGH: Excuse me, Judge, before this is shown to
17 the jury, we would likes to have copies.
18 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, we supplied it to the defense
19 by the government about eight months ago, but if the Court
20 prefers we can have some copies made, additional copies made
21 for them.
22 MR. BAUGH: These are entered in Arabic.
23 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I'll proceed. Forget about
24 showing it to the jury.
25 Q I'm going to read the following to you, Imam. Please see
4629
1 if you can read along with me?
2 THE COURT: You are reading from what document?
3 MR. RICCO: That would be A4, your Honor.
4 We'll start at the third paragraph. We're not going
5 to read the entire document.
6 Brother, you know that it was wrong to perpetuate
7 something which is wrong and it is right to perpetuate
8 something which is right. It is right, right in its entirety
9 and the will of his dear one follow the righteous paths, the
10 solfi path.
11 Solfi is a Muslim who practices Muslim as propagated
12 by the Prophet Mohammed and the first four Muslim kalifas who
13 adhere to the strict interpretation of the faith.
14 And the path of austerity in life and jealousies and
15 humility to take over an arrogant and cursed infidel on the
16 day of judgment. Submit only to that which is right. Do not
17 disobey him ever. Do not be the (unintelligible) and do not
18 hesitate in seeking knowledge and have patience for it. Stay
19 strong on a platform and listen to who is laughing and
20 challenging the legitimacy of every despot of pittance and
21 every oppressive tyrant who desires to corrupt the people and
22 the land.
23 Please listen to this part:
24 I'm aware that jihad is the true word that we believe
25 in and which guarantees for those who seek and that we die
4630
1 for. There is no more supreme truth than more truthful.
2 There is no God but God and Mohammed is his Prophet. I'm
3 aware of its imperative and I strive to concede to it, to live
4 well by it, and to die by it, God willing.
5 Dear brother Abu Kali, all praise is due to God. I
6 live a good life and all that I seek is for God's acceptance,
7 and the acceptance of my mother and your acceptance.
8 And the letter goes on.
9 I'm sorry. I think that the government is
10 stipulating, just so the jury is aware, first of all, this is
11 a letter from Mohammed Odeh to a relative and he's describing
12 a person named Abu Khalid. I think the government is
13 stipulating that Abu Khalid is a person that has nothing to do
14 with this case.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge, Abu Khalid has not been
16 referred to any other testimony or documents yet.
17 MR. RICCO: Thank you very much.
18 Q Now, Imam, that letter is written from one Muslim to
19 another talking about jihad. Can you explain to the jury what
20 that concept is and how is it interpreted in the Islamic
21 world?
22 A First of all, it is very difficult for me to follow the
23 letter out of context, so I have no idea, you know, there is
24 no context for me. But in terms of the word jihad, jihad, you
25 know, it's a word that elicits all kinds of emotions. I know
4631
1 I've been dealing with this in college universities all
2 throughout the world. But let me sort of linguistically
3 first. The word jihad, jihad only means to struggle. Every
4 Muslim knows that. And I'll give an example. Prophet
5 Mohammed, and I'll just say the Arabic. This is my training.
6 Then I'll just translate it. The Prophet says (nonEnglish).
7 Whenever a judge make a judgment (nonEnglish) the word jihad
8 is used and he struggles else to get the right answer, and he
9 gets the right answer (nonEnglish). He gets two rewards, a
10 double reward. (nonEnglish) And when he struggles, and gets
11 the wrong answer, this judge he will still get an award, a
12 reward because of that jihad, because of that struggle.
13 So of Muslim knows that when you say jihad or jihada,
14 it means to struggle. That's all it means. You know it could
15 mean a struggle, you know, I remember after 13 years Prophet
16 Mohammed with his community was in Mecca, and they were run
17 out of Mecca to Medina, and called this migration, called the
18 hadra or migration. They were oppressed so much finally Allah
19 reveals, you know, you are now permitted to fight against
20 those who fight against you.
21 So a jihad can be a fight when people fight against
22 you. It can be that. I don't want to mislead anyone. It
23 could be that. But every Muslim knows that really a jihad is
24 a struggle. The first struggle, the first struggle is
25 internal struggle. It's a jihad within yourself. For
4632
1 instance, Muslims have to pray five times a day. The first
2 prayer is called the dawn prayer. That means we have to get
3 up before the rise of the sun. Any Muslim will tell you
4 that's a jihad. You know, that's a jihad.
5 And you know during the month of Ramadan Muslims have
6 to fast for thirty days, and, you know, and you know, years
7 ago we used to have see Ramadan, just give me a second to say
8 this fast, it's worth saying, (nonEnglish). The month of
9 Ramadam Muslims have a lunar calendar similar to Jews and
10 Chinese, and that means the years, you know, the months move
11 around throughout the years. Sometimes the month of Ramadam
12 is in the winter and sometimes it's in the summer. So when
13 Ramadam is in the summer, I'm talking about 12, 13, 14 hours
14 of fasting, hot, you can't even drink water, right? That's a
15 jihad.
16 So every Muslim will tell you, yeah, man, I did my
17 jihad, man, you know, I fasted for the month of Ramadam. I'll
18 give you one more example. I'm sorry.
19 Q That's okay.
20 A Pilgrimage to Mecca. You get two million people and you
21 know in that small place and you're trying to do your rites,
22 your hajj rights, your pilgrimage rights, that's a jihad.
23 Q When you first took the witness stand I asked you about
24 the community that your Masjid is in. Have there been those
25 who have described the transformation of that community as a
4633
1 jihad?
2 A Absolutely. Yeah, we, I mean, I mean we would hear gun
3 fire everyday. Drugs sold all the time, you know. Drug
4 sales. We decided to wage a jihad against the drugs in the
5 area. So we, so we did that. And we were able to get rid of
6 by Allah's permission most of the drugs in that area and it
7 was a real jihad.
8 Q But you're also explaining to the jury that the term jihad
9 can mean to wage war and to fight?
10 A Yes. It can also mean that, yes.
11 Q Now, if a Muslim gives bayat, does the Muslim have the
12 right to question the order or direction of the person to whom
13 he is giving bayat?
14 A No, he doesn't have the right. He has the duty. It's
15 more than a right. He has to -- in fact, it's you know, you
16 know, Prophet, we believe that Prophet have what's called the
17 masum. Masum is infallibility. This infallibility because
18 God is guiding them, so Jesus, Abraham, Moses, these great
19 prophets were infallible, but not human beings.
20 Every human being, you know, we make mistakes. So
21 and, therefore, yes, we should obey leadership. We have to
22 have leadership for sure. You know every corporation have to
23 have a president. You have to obey leadership but not
24 blindly. And we have a duty, a responsibility to challenge
25 leadership. When that leadership gives us the directions that
4634
1 are not sound, that's not correct.
2 Q Imam, I just have a few more questions, and I want to ask
3 you whether or not there is any Islamic authority that
4 endorses the killing of individuals like, for example,
5 Americans, anywhere they can be found?
6 A Absolutely incorrect.
7 MR. BAUGH: Objection. Too late now.
8 THE COURT: Excuse me?
9 MR. BAUGH: I'm sorry. I was trying to object but
10 the answer got out. I would ask, I would make an objection to
11 that. I would ask that the form of the question must be a
12 personal opinion, and it was offered in any way except his
13 personal opinion, move it be stricken.
14 THE COURT: The jury should understand that this
15 witness is testifying as to his understanding of those terms
16 and of these concepts, and it will be for others to tell you
17 if it's the case, whether there are other scholars or other
18 leaders who hold differing views or differing concepts or
19 whether this is a monolithic group or whether there are
20 segments who hold different views. But the jury should
21 understand, and the Imam is shaking his head, yes, that what
22 he is expressing are his views and his understandings.
23 THE WITNESS: But I want to say this and this is not
24 a matter of opinion. I can tell you quite clearly. No one,
25 no Muslim --
4635
1 MR. BAUGH: Objection, your Honor. That is
2 unresponsive to the question and there was no question.
3 Q Let me ask a question. Let's start in the general scheme.
4 Do you know of any religion that endorses the killing of
5 innocent women and children?
6 A No.
7 Q Anywhere to your knowledge?
8 A I don't know, no.
9 MR. BAUGH: Objection. Your Honor, again, he's not
10 qualified to all religions. He was offered on one religion as
11 his personal opinion only.
12 Q In your study of Islam you told us that a Muslim has to
13 know the Torah?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Is Torah Islamic law?
16 A I'm sorry?
17 Q You had said you have to know the Torah?
18 A We have to believe in the Torah. It's a difference.
19 Q Okay. And you have knowledge of the Torah?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you have knowledge of the Bible?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the prophets and the apostles as set forth in the
24 Bible. Based on your study as a religious scholar do you know
25 of any religion that endorses the killing of innocent women
4636
1 and children?
2 A I don't know. I don't know. I don't.
3 Q Okay. Now, let's focus in on Islam.
4 Is there any authority in the Koran that you know of
5 that endorses the killing of innocent women and children?
6 A No.
7 MR. BAUGH: Objection, your Honor, improper question.
8 The question must be is there any authority in the Torah that
9 he interprets, the Koran that he interprets. The jury will
10 understand that all of the answers to all of the questions are
11 this witness' understanding and his beliefs. And you recall
12 my previous comment.
13 Q Imam, we have to wait. It's okay. Now, very interesting
14 dynamic.
15 Isn't what's going on here is supposed to happen in
16 Islam? In other words, a person says this is Islamically
17 correct and an individual like Mr. Baugh has a right in Islam
18 to say, I challenge that?
19 A Absolutely.
20 Q Okay.
21 A Not a problem.
22 Q All right. And you're saying that it's his duty to say, I
23 challenge that?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q And the role of the scholar is to do what, to point to the
4637
1 Koran?
2 A Give his evidence.
3 Q Okay. Now, what I'd like to ask you, Imam, is what is the
4 evidence that supports your position that Islam does not
5 endorse the killing of innocent women and children?
6 A You see, you know, again, we have to always go back to
7 what God said or what his messenger said an I give an example.
8 Even in the time, you know, there is one verse that says
9 (nonEnglish). Fight in the way of God those who fight against
10 you, but even then don't go beyond the boundaries for God.
11 Love not those who go beyond the boundaries.
12 Now the Prophet Mohammed, peace and blessing be upon
13 him, taught us this. He said, even in war if you are
14 fighting, you cannot harm women, you can't harm children, you
15 can't harm the elderly and you can't even destroy the land.
16 So boundaries are given to us in Islam. (nonEnglish). Then
17 these are the boundaries of Allah. Don't go beyond them.
18 Even in war we can't go beyond the boundaries, much less in
19 peace.
20 Q Okay. Now you mentioned the term "land." Is it
21 Islamically improper to destroy crops and force people to
22 starve?
23 A Yes. Incorrect, yes. Improper.
24 Q And when a Muslim is confronted with that situation, that
25 is a fellow Muslim is being victimized by that situation, what
4638
1 is the response of another Muslim?
2 A Not just the fellow Muslim. Muslims have to fight against
3 oppression and injustice wherever it is, not just against
4 other Muslims. So our job, according to the Koran, is
5 enjoying the good and forbid the evil. So wherever we find
6 that kind of evil existing in the society, Muslims have an
7 obligation to try to stop it.
8 Q If a Muslim person or even a Muslim soldier is given an
9 order that goes against these Islamic principles, that is
10 killing of women and children, what is his duty or obligation?
11 A He's not supposed to obey it. I know it puts himself in
12 tremendous risk, but reality is he's not supposed to obey it.
13 We have to challenge our leaders, and, you know, and stop
14 them. I give an example exact what the Prophet said. He said
15 (nonEnglish). That means, help your brother if he is
16 oppressed and if he is an oppressor. So one of the companions
17 said, wait a minute, I know how to help him if he's oppressed,
18 but how do we help him if he's the oppressor himself?
19 The Prophet said, stop him from his oppression.
20 That's the way you help him. So if our leader tells us to do
21 something that's wrong, we have to stop them and say, no, we
22 can't do that.
23 Q Is that verse that you just shared with us, that bukkra
24 reea, volume 9?
25 A The bukkarti exactly, very good, bukari, volume 9 exactly,
4639
1 right.
2 Q Okay. Imam, I have two questions. Actually, I have three
3 questions. I'm sorry, your Honor.
4 Is the concept of suicide known in Islam?
5 A Is it known?
6 Q Yes. Is it addressed?
7 A Yes, it's addressed, yes.
8 Q Does Islam endorse suicide?
9 A Absolutely not. In fact, I'll tell you what the Prophet
10 said. It's very scary. That if a person commits suicide in
11 the hereafter that person will be in the hell fire committing
12 that suicide over and over again.
13 For instance, if a person, you know, jumped off of a
14 tall building, his punishment in the hell fire is he will
15 relive that over and over again, he will go to a tall building
16 and jump off, and go back on the top an jump off again. So
17 suicide is frowned upon completely in Islam because it
18 represents an act of lack of faith, because, you know, suicide
19 is a, you know, a permanent, you know, a permanent move with
20 something that's, you know, temporary, temporary condition.
21 So when a person commits suicide, that's a lack of
22 faith. So that's why it's really considered a major sin in
23 Islam.
24 Q Okay. Imam Siraj, have you been paid or have you received
25 any fee for appearing and testifying here this morning?
4640
1 A Not at all, no.
2 Q Would you accept such a fee?
3 A No. I might take it and give it as a gift to someone
4 though.
5 Q It's good to know.
6 Imam, as you look around the well this morning if you
7 can look around the well --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- other than maybe a few of the attorneys, do you know
10 any of the men who are present in this courtroom?
11 A I don't think so, no.
12 Q And my point is, Imam, do you know anything about the
13 facts of this case?
14 A No, I really don't know.
15 MR. RICCO: We thank you very much.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Anything from defense counsel?
18 MR. BAUGH: Mr. Al-'Owhali's counsel, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Baugh on behalf of the defendant
20 Al-'Owhali.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 (Pause)
23 BY MR. BAUGH:
24 Q Now you know who the real power in the courtroom is.
25 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I move to strike that, unless
4641
1 it's a legitimate question.
2 MR. BAUGH: I'm sorry. Withdrawn. No objection.
3 Q What is the correct -- should I refer you to as Imam?
4 THE COURT: I must have missed something.
5 (Laughter)
6 MR. BAUGH: I said, now you know who the real power
7 in the courtroom is because the court reporter could cut us
8 off.
9 THE COURT: I want the record to be clear, because
10 anybody reading this record and not knowing what happened
11 would understand that the comment was because the court
12 reporter had indicated that he had to replace his tape or make
13 some other adjustments, and that there was a facetious remark
14 directed to --
15 MR. BAUGH: The court reporter.
16 THE COURT: -- the court reporter's ability to stop
17 the proceeding.
18 MR. BAUGH: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: I think absent that explanation this
20 would not have been understood. You may proceed.
21 Q Should I refer to you, sir --
22 A Imam is fine.
23 Q Now, regarding, there are some major differences between
24 Islam and some other religions, am I correct?
25 A Yes, Uh-huh, sure.
4642
1 Q For instance, Rabbis are ordained, am I correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And by, ordained, that means that they have been chosen as
4 an interpreter, for wont of a better term, of the word of God?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q All right. And priests and ministers, many of them, not
7 all of them, are also ordained.
8 You have to say yes or no or the court reporter --
9 A Some of them are, yes.
10 Q And by ordained that means they are officially permitted
11 to speak and interpret the word of God?
12 A Some of them, yes.
13 Q Right. Those who are ordained?
14 A Those who are ordained, yes.
15 Q Now, in Islam, am I correct, that Imams are not ordained?
16 A Absolutely.
17 Q In fact, one of the principles of Islam, and believe me I
18 am very disarmed here, but in Islam the primary responsibility
19 for adherence to the dictates of Islam is an individual
20 responsibility?
21 A Yes and no, partly.
22 Q Well, like for instance --
23 A Partly.
24 Q -- one of the five pillars to make hajj, H-A-J-J, to visit
25 Mecca once during your lifetime. Am I correct that a Muslim
4643
1 is duty bound to make hajj if he or she can?
2 A Exactly, yes.
3 Q A Muslim, one of the five pillars is to pray if one can?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And also as part of prayer there is a, there is a
6 preparation process for prayer?
7 You have to say yes or no.
8 A I'm sorry. Yes, yes.
9 Q And part of that preparation includes washing?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that is called Wudu? W-U-D-U?
12 A Yes, it's ablutions, but wudu in Arabic language.
13 Q And the obligation to make wudu prior to prayer is only if
14 one can?
15 A To do it a certain way with water if one can.
16 Q And if one can't, you do it with dirt with soil, yes?
17 A With soil, yes.
18 Q So in Islam you have people who are scholars?
19 A Yes.
20 Q People who have studied the word, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q In fact, there are even some people who have -- do we have
23 a copy of the Koran over there on the table? Would someone
24 hold it up, please. Just hold it up. Thank you.
25 Is there a person called a kursep -- am I pronouncing
4644
1 that correctly? What do you call a person who has memorized
2 the?
3 A Hafiz. Hafiz. Hafiz.
4 Q That is someone who is actually memorized every word --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- in the Koran?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And the Koran is viewed as the word of God?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q As handed down through Mohammed?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And he, because Mohammed could not write, am I correct?
13 A Right.
14 Q He then told it to someone and it was written on the back
15 of pieces of bone and leaves and things?
16 A Yes.
17 Q It was written down?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, you understand, believe me I'm not trying to impress
20 you with my knowledge, you understand that?
21 A Right.
22 Q I'm asking to, you can explain it to me so that you can
23 explain it to this jury, all right, and if I make a mistake,
24 feel free to jump in.
25 A I will.
4645
1 Q Thank you.
2 Now, that personal responsibility for carrying out
3 the word of God means that if every other Muslim in the world
4 disagrees with me and if every Imam disagrees with me, but as
5 a Muslim I honestly and sincerely believe that I have a
6 responsibility to my faith to commit an act, no one can tell
7 me that I'm wrong?
8 A Yes, they can.
9 Q They can argue with me?
10 A No, they can tell you you're wrong.
11 Q They can say that God forbids this?
12 A Absolutely, yes, because if not, if not --
13 Q Go ahead.
14 A -- we would have a society of everybody doing what they
15 want to do any time they want to do it. What I'm saying, you
16 are correct by saying an individual who says that I think I
17 have the right to do that, but that must be, it must be
18 encroached with knowledge and information and the right
19 information.
20 Q Then I will clear up the question. If I tell you, and you
21 and I have debated this issue --
22 A Okay.
23 Q -- and I have read those sections that you've told me to
24 read, and I have read the interpretations you've told me to
25 believe --
4646
1 A Yes.
2 Q -- and in good faith and with knowledge I disagree with
3 you --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- am I wrong?
6 A Yes. Let me tell you why. Let me introduce something
7 else that is important in Islam.
8 Q Okay?
9 A After the Koran, and I didn't say this before, but I'm
10 going to add something as what's calmed a source of knowledge
11 in Islam. Number one, it's the Koran. Number two, it's the
12 hadid or the sayings of Prophet Mohamed. Number three is the
13 thing called the idmat by the scholars, that is agreed upon by
14 the scholars. There are some things that everybody agrees
15 upon.
16 So if a person says, well I, I disagree, you know,
17 sure you have a right to disagree, but you have to, like the
18 scholars, you have to bring your evidence, right, so it can't
19 be a matter of, well, how I feel, you know, because that's you
20 know -- so there, I agree that there is some room for
21 difference of opinion definitely. But not to that extent.
22 There is some basic things that you can't get outside. You
23 can't escape it.
24 Q Are your opinions consistent with the opinions of all
25 Imams in the -- how many billions of Muslims are there in the
4647
1 world --
2 A One billion three hundred thousand.
3 MR. RICCO: Objection.
4 A One billion three hundred million.
5 MR. RICCO: I would like specificity as to his
6 opinion about what --
7 Q I was going to clear that up. There was a comma. Are
8 your opinions on the interpretation of every aspect of the
9 Koran in concordance, in accordance with the opinion of every
10 other Imam?
11 A I have never, I have never read any religion where
12 everybody agrees on interpretation of everything. Likewise in
13 Islam I'm saying, yes, likewise in Islam there is a divergence
14 of opinions on different topics, but there are some things
15 that there is no difference of opinion on.
16 Q And now I'm going to play lawyer. When you say, there are
17 some things that people who in good faith disagree on, that
18 means that your opinion is not consistent with all Imams all
19 the time on all issues?
20 A Of course, no, of course not, yes.
21 Q Thank you.
22 A Yes.
23 Q So the answer to that question is no, you are not in
24 accordance all the time?
25 A Maybe ask the question again because I don't understand
4648
1 the question.
2 Q Let me give you an example. It is inappropriate to kill
3 innocent women and children?
4 A Absolutely.
5 Q Absolutely. And it is inappropriate Islamically incorrect
6 to destroy crops?
7 A Yes, of course.
8 Q In jihad?
9 A I'm sorry?
10 Q During jihad?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And further --
13 A During.
14 Q You can only struggle with your enemy until that person
15 stops struggling back?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then you must stop?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Hypothetically, if I might, and I'm asking for your
20 opinion based on your interpretation of the religion -- strike
21 that. First, jihad, and forgive my pronunciation.
22 A It's very good in fact.
23 Q Thank you. And I should point out that the Arabic
24 alphabet has more letters than the English alphabet?
25 A 26 in English.
4649
1 Q What is it 29?
2 A 28, something 29. Depends.
3 Q They disagree on the number of letters?
4 A Well hamsa is counted as a letter. Sometimes it's not.
5 Q So there are some sounds in Arabic words that are not
6 available to English?
7 A You're right.
8 Q Now, jihad, am I correct, is also a duty of Muslims?
9 A Yes.
10 Q If a Muslim believes in faith and knowledge that others
11 are being oppressed and that they are being thwarted in their
12 ability to practice their religion and if he honestly and with
13 knowledge believes that, that Muslim has a duty to resist the
14 oppressor?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. Tell me where I'm wrong.
17 A Let me say why, because again you're talking about a
18 situation that would create anarchy. Jihad is not left to the
19 individual person. Jihad is the responsibility of the head of
20 the Muslim state to declare that jihad and not as individual
21 people.
22 Q Who is the head of the Muslim state?
23 A I'm saying --
24 Q Who is the head of the Muslim state?
25 A Depends on which country you're talking about.
4650
1 Q By country?
2 A Yes. Obviously in the days of the Prophet Mohammed there
3 was what you called Allah uma, one uma. But we don't have
4 that today. You have Pakistan. You have Bangladesh, you have
5 Saudi, Arabia. You have Syria. You have Lebanon. You have
6 all these Muslim countries. So obviously, obviously we don't
7 have one head of the Muslim community, of the Muslim nation,
8 but you do have heads of those individual countries. So then
9 it would be become --
10 Q So the head of the individual --
11 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, could Mr. Baugh allow the
12 witness to answer the question before he --
13 MR. BAUGH: Forgive me. I'm sorry.
14 A It's the same thing in the United States of America. The
15 President of the United States of America has the right to
16 declare war. The same thing with individual Muslim countries,
17 the head of that Muslim country has the right to declare war.
18 And I'm saying to you right, that no United States citizen
19 have the right to say, I'm going to go declare war on anybody.
20 That would be wrong. It would be, it would be go against the
21 law.
22 And the same way in Islam, it would be wrong for
23 individual person to say I say, I feel that this person is
24 being, is persecuted, therefore, I am going to take the
25 responsibility to do that. That is wrong, that's incorrect.
4651
1 Q So it's your interpretation that the head of the Muslim
2 state has the right to determine when it is Islamically
3 correct for Muslims to declare jihad?
4 A I'll say it this way. It's the right of that head of the
5 Islamic state, like any other state, to declare war to defend
6 the nation. Now, a head of Muslims state might make a mistake
7 and they may do something that's incorrect, and I give you
8 examples of that if I wanted to.
9 Q But I just want -- are you telling me that the head of the
10 Muslim, of a Muslim state has the power to make the Islamic
11 interpretation of whether jihad should be called?
12 A Unfortunately, unfortunately, yes. I give an example.
13 Saddam Hussein for instance, right? I'm saying to you in this
14 courtroom that I disagree, you know, with Saddam Hussein and
15 his interpretations. So I'm just being honest with you.
16 Q So Saddam Hussein, it is, you're telling this jury that
17 Saddam Hussein because he is the head of a Muslim state has
18 the Islamic --
19 A No.
20 Q -- ability --
21 A Oh.
22 Q -- to make an interpretation that jihad must be followed?
23 A Not an Islamic ability, right? You have --
24 Q Okay.
25 A Not Islamic ability. That's the wrong word, right.
4652
1 Q What's the word? If not ability, what's the word?
2 A He has the ability to do it because he's the head of that
3 country.
4 Q Okay. So now you know of course that there was no Saddam
5 Hussein being the President of Iraq at the time of the
6 Prophet. There was no Iraq, was there?
7 A Right, it wasn't.
8 Q The fact that there is a country called Iraq that has
9 lines on a map that says, this is Iraq, was determined by the
10 British and the French?
11 A That's right.
12 Q In the famous Accord of 1960?
13 A You got it.
14 Q So there would be no difference between what is Iraq and
15 what is Saudi Arabia but for the English and the British,
16 right?
17 A Probably.
18 Q In fact, many Muslims do not recognize there is a
19 difference between Iraqi Muslim and Saudi Muslims other than
20 Suffi and all that?
21 A No, no, no, no. No, every Muslim recognize that whether
22 you come from Africa or China or whether you come from Europe
23 if you're Muslim, you're just a Muslim brother, so there is no
24 difference in that regard.
25 Q And religiously if the president of the Iraqi Muslim
4653
1 nation says that he interprets jihad as proper, if I'm an
2 American Muslim I don't have to follow that if I don't want
3 to, do I?
4 A Of course not.
5 (Continued on next page)
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4654
1 Q But if I believe responsibly that in discharge of my faith
2 that he is correct, then I have a duty to follow it.
3 A I go back to my original point.
4 Q Answer my question. Is that correct or incorrect?
5 A Incorrect. I go back to my original point. Whether you
6 are the king of Saudi Arabia or the president of Iraq, you
7 have substantially everything that you do with the book of God
8 and the messenger. So my point is this. It would be wrong
9 just because of the personality of that leader who declares
10 everything to simply follow them blindly. That then becomes
11 my point.
12 Q Sir, I am not saying follow blindly.
13 A OK.
14 Q If Saddam Hussein issues a fatwah and I, not following
15 blindly but in discharge of my faith, say I agree with his
16 interpretation, I agree that what he is saying is Islamically
17 correct and I have studied the issue and I am in agreement
18 with him, do I have a duty to abide by that interpretation?
19 A Probably.
20 Q For example, asking solely for your interpretation,
21 knowing that it is wrong -- what is the word, harum?
22 A Haram.
23 Q -- it is haram to kill innocents, if the invading enemy
24 straps innocent children to their tanks, must I allow the
25 tanks to run over me? Or can I resist them?
4655
1 A That would be a very difficult situation, obviously.
2 Q What is the difficult answer?
3 A I am sorry?
4 Q What is the difficult answer?
5 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I object to this type of
6 examination. He should ask the witness the question and let
7 the witness answer the question.
8 THE COURT: The objection is that the witness is not
9 being given a sufficient opportunity to respond?
10 MR. RICCO: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Yes, that objection is sustained.
12 Q What is the answer?
13 A It's a very difficult situation. I am not even sure if I
14 am prepared to make the answer. But I do say this. If I am a
15 general in a battlefield and I have to make some crucial
16 decisions and I might have to make a decision in order to save
17 my country and my troops, I might have to make a decision, a
18 very tragic decision because of the circumstances, of the
19 particular circumstances.
20 Q Am I correct, following what I have learned from you
21 today --
22 A I think, by the way, you know, this is not -- it wouldn't
23 be a question like for Muslims. It would be the same question
24 for a Christian army or a Jewish army. They would be
25 confronted with the same issue. So it's not an Islamic issue.
4656
1 But the point that I am trying to say, that Islam teaches us
2 to avoid these things when you can.
3 Q When you can.
4 A Of course.
5 Q And when you cannot -- if you can't avoid it, you have not
6 committed a sin, have you?
7 A If you can't avoid it, sure.
8 Q For example, if there is an airplane, hypothetically,
9 coming at the City of New York, and on that airplane is a
10 nuclear device, 2 terrorists and 250 innocent children. It is
11 going to crash in New York and kill every child in the New
12 York school system. Shooting that plane down will kill those
13 250 innocents. I know it's a hard question. I struggle with
14 it. It gets closer and closer. I decide that it is a
15 decision I must make. Have I violated the faith in killing
16 those 250 innocents?
17 A That's like a movie I saw a couple years ago. (Laughter)
18 Really, Armageddon or something like that.
19 Q The question is this: If I make that decision and I come
20 to you and I say imam, will my soul burn in hell forever
21 because of my decision, can you tell me definitively yes or
22 no? Can you tell me that?
23 A I can.
24 Q And the answer would be?
25 A No.
4657
1 Q Another example. You said before that Muslims view
2 themselves as brothers regardless of their nationality.
3 A Yes.
4 Q Even if they don't even speak the same language.
5 A Yes, of course.
6 Q Although I understand that you really should learn how to
7 speak Arabic to really appreciate the Koran.
8 A Yes.
9 Q As a Muslim, my duty is not only to my state but also to
10 other Muslims.
11 A Yes.
12 Q If, hypothetically, I believe that millions of children
13 are being killed by my enemy and the only way to stop the
14 death of those children is to blow up my enemy's facilities --
15 first, if the death of millions of children is current, Muslim
16 children -- any children. I should qualify that. It extends
17 beyond Muslims, oppression in all forms.
18 A Yes.
19 Q If that is happening and I interpret that I am personally
20 responsible to try and stop it, I am required to try and stop
21 it, aren't I?
22 A No.
23 Q I am not?
24 A No.
25 Q OK.
4658
1 A Again, you are getting into people saying that I have a
2 right to do it. That's illegal, that's criminal, and United
3 States law it is criminal and Islamic law. I am telling you
4 that each one of us, we don't have the right to then interpret
5 and to go commit acts of violence. Islam does not condone or
6 accept that.
7 Q Sir, if there is a disagreement between law of America and
8 that which you interpret as religiously required, what
9 prevails?
10 A I will give you a perfect example.
11 Q The question I ask you, sir, which prevails?
12 A It depends on the circumstances. I am saying right now
13 there are laws in Islam that is not applied in the United
14 States context because we are in a sovereign nation.
15 Q However, sir --
16 A I give you an example, like drinking alcohol is prohibited
17 in Islamic law, right? But it's not prohibited in this
18 country. We can't penalize a Muslim if a Muslim drink
19 alcohol, even though it's against the Islamic law. You can't
20 have that person punished in this country.
21 Q If, however, it is forbidden by the Koran to drink
22 alcohol, and it is --
23 A Yes.
24 Q If I live in America I can drink alcohol?
25 A Absolutely.
4659
1 Q Because in the religious law -- you are talking about
2 punishment under the law, right?
3 A Hm.
4 Q And you are not a lawyer.
5 A That's right.
6 Q I am asking you only for punishment from God.
7 A OK.
8 Q That's all I ask.
9 A Now I understand.
10 Q Forgive me. If jihad is called and if I accept that
11 responsibility, and even if I violate man's law, the civil
12 law, have I committed a sin?
13 A Maybe.
14 Q By maybe, do you mean it is subject to interpretation by
15 scholars?
16 A No.
17 Q What makes it a maybe?
18 A I'm saying, you say jihad was called by whom.
19 Q Jihad is called by anybody. However, I listen to it --
20 it's called by my imam.
21 A Can't do it. Can't do it.
22 Q I have to listen to a head of state?
23 A Well, let me put it this way. You know, Islam doesn't
24 teach anarchy and people can't take it upon themselves when
25 they don't like something, even though something seems to be
4660
1 unjust, to get up and do that kind of violence. It just
2 doesn't -- it's not Islamic.
3 Q Are you familiar with what is going on in Iraq now?
4 A In terms of what?
5 Q The death of the children?
6 A Yes, yes, OK.
7 Q Have you read that since the imposition of the sanctions
8 over a million Iraqi children have died?
9 A Yes, I have.
10 Q And that these children are dying because of malnutrition?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Lack of medical supplies?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And bombing by the United States.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Further, that this malnutrition has implications other
17 than death.
18 A Yes.
19 Q That malnutrition causes retardation? You have to say yes
20 or no.
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that it also causes health problems that can occur
23 generations down the road.
24 A Yes.
25 Q Based upon your training and understanding, you know this
4661
1 is occurring.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that considered by you personally to be oppressive?
4 A Yes.
5 Q If the head of a Muslim state says this is wrong and
6 Muslims everywhere should resist it, if they believe in that
7 do they have a duty to resist it?
8 A Let me tell you what the prophet says, because everything
9 goes back to what the prophet said. (Non-English spoken)
10 Whoever sees an evil should change it with his hand. If he is
11 unable to change it with his hand he should change it with his
12 tongue. If he is unable to change it with his tongue, he
13 should change it with his heart. (Non-English spoken)
14 This is the teaching of Islam that is very pragmatic.
15 There are things personally that I am doing to help the people
16 in Iraq, that we have done, food supplies and things like
17 that. That is something we can do. We have gotten food
18 supplies, medical supplies in Iraq. This is something that I
19 can do. I can't wage war. I have spoken to the United States
20 government. We have had rallies and we have done the things
21 that we can do according to our ability. Islam, and I go back
22 to my major point, doesn't teach anarchy.
23 Q Imam, isn't it illegal to ship goods into an embargoed
24 nation?
25 A There is ways. There are groups of people that have
4662
1 gotten goods and medical supplies into that country.
2 Q Sir, imam, is it against the law of the United States to
3 ship embargoed goods into Iraq, if you know?
4 MR. RICCO: I am going to object because I think
5 Mr. Baugh has brought out that the imam not is not a lawyer.
6 THE COURT: If he knows. Is that an area of your
7 expertise?
8 THE WITNESS: It is not, no.
9 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
10 Q When you shipped these items to Iraq --
11 A I didn't ship them myself. I know that they were shipped.
12 Q When you get with other people and find a way to get it
13 into Iraq, do you have to work a circuitous route because it
14 is illegal to send it directly?
15 A Truthfully I don't know, but probably so.
16 Q Have you ever tried to ship it directly?
17 A No. I wouldn't even know how to begin to do it. All I
18 know is that there are people, both Muslims and nonMuslims,
19 good Christians and others who have taken medical supplies,
20 badly needed medical supplies. I don't think that was against
21 the law, personally. Maybe I am wrong but I didn't know that
22 was against the law. One thing I can also say --
23 THE COURT: Now we have three people talking at the
24 same time. You know who you listen to, right? Let's try one
25 at a time.
4663
1 A I can say this to you, sir, you take great men like Martin
2 Luther King Jr. who fought against unjust laws and did it in a
3 just kind of way. So you take a man like Martin Luther King,
4 so if you want to say he broke the law and he was put in jail,
5 I guess you can say that. But I think people would agree that
6 that kind of nonviolent struggle against unjust laws, I think
7 you would call him a hero.
8 Q Agreed. Sir, what does embargo mean to you?
9 MR. RICCO: Same objection, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q I am not asking for a legal definition, but when I use the
12 word embargo -- have you heard that word before?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. RICCO: Judge, I am going to object.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 MR. BAUGH: I would ask for the basis of the
17 objection.
18 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, he is called as a witness on
19 Islam, not for US foreign policy.
20 THE COURT: Ask the question --
21 Q In your lay interpretation, you said you have heard the
22 word embargo.
23 A Yes.
24 Q What does embargo mean to you?
25 A I think it means when a country stops supplies from going
4664
1 to another country. That's an embargo.
2 Q Do you know that the United States has embargoed Iraq?
3 A I do believe they have embargoed certain items, not
4 medical goods, as far as I know. There is not an embargo on
5 that, as far as I know.
6 Q If it was shown to you that there is a law,
7 hypothetically, that says you cannot, Americans cannot send
8 medical supplies to Iraq, which law would control?
9 MR. RICCO: Objection.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q If a Muslim has a difference with his emir, his chief, and
12 his difference is based upon his training, his education, his
13 good faith, his personal religious interpretation, who is a
14 Muslim bound to follow?
15 A See, you said based on his training.
16 Q No, I said based on his training, his interpretation, his
17 debating with imams --
18 A See, doesn't matter as long as he has his evidence.
19 Q If he has his evidence, and when you say his evidence,
20 evidence can be --
21 A That can be substantiated from the Koran or from the
22 prophet.
23 Q If a Muslim has evidence to support his position that his
24 emir is wrong, for instance, an Iraqi says I think Saddam
25 Hussein is wrong, does that Muslim have a duty? Yes or no.
4665
1 A Sure.
2 Q What is that duty if he thinks his emir is wrong?
3 A Probably to confront him. As I mentioned, the prophet
4 said to stop the oppression and that way you help. But, you
5 see, again, you have to go pragmatic. You have to do it
6 according to your own ability, so you try to do it in such a
7 way that you can try to convince the leader that what he is
8 doing is incorrect.
9 Q What if you attempt to convince and the wrong continues?
10 Do you have a duty to just stop talking to him or do you have
11 a duty to continue to try and stop it with another tactic?
12 A You try every way you can to stop it, yes.
13 Q If you have spoken with him, if you have prayed on the
14 issue, if you have asked for religious guidance, you
15 protested, you wrote letters, you took out on ad, and nothing
16 changes, do you have a duty to continue to try and stop the
17 oppression?
18 A Yes.
19 Q If I die in jihad, what benefit do I get?
20 A If you die in a legitimate struggle, a jihad, we believe
21 as Muslims that you go to paradise.
22 Q Directly?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Any other benefits? What about the --
25 A Actually, you would alleviate whatever oppression there is
4666
1 on the earth, so it would be that benefit.
2 Q So if I die in jihad in order to stop oppression, that can
3 stop oppression?
4 A That can stop oppression?
5 Q Is that what you said?
6 A I am saying, there is a possibility that the struggle that
7 you are doing, that you may have stopped, you might have
8 stopped the oppression. That's a possibility, yes.
9 Q I go to heaven, I go to paradise if I die in jihad. I
10 stop the wrong against which I was fighting. Any other
11 benefits? What about to my loved ones and family members if I
12 die in jihad?
13 A I don't follow. I am not sure what you are asking me.
14 Q I would ask you, is there a religious benefit if I give my
15 son or daughter to jihad, to die in jihad? Is there a benefit
16 to me? Does God give me a benefit?
17 A If you give your child to jihad? I am not sure what that
18 means.
19 Q If my child dies in jihad, does that inure to my benefit
20 at all? If it's not, it's not.
21 A I am not familiar with any teaching like that.
22 Q What about if I give my life in jihad, what about the pain
23 of my death? Is there a statement in the Koran that my death
24 will feel like a pinch or pinprick?
25 A It is not in the Koran but the prophet said in hadith, if
4667
1 I die in jihad the pain is like the biting of an ant.
2 Q Anything other than that I pain will be eased and I go
3 directly to paradise and I can stop the wrong that I am
4 opposing?
5 A Nothing that I can think of right now.
6 Q When I go to paradise, will I see Allah?
7 A Yes, we are taught that everyone that goes to paradise
8 will see Allah.
9 Q Who is ultimately in Islam responsible for gathering the
10 information that can be construed as evidence?
11 A I think everyone is, but --
12 Q Every individual?
13 A Every individual, but the one who is accountable and
14 responsible is the leader and I will tell you why, what the
15 prophet said. It's important. He said every one of you is a
16 shepherd and every one of you is accountable for your flock.
17 The imam is a shepherd and he is responsible. The emir or the
18 head is responsible, accountable for those people under him.
19 Then the father, he is responsible, the mother, she is
20 responsible. Everyone is responsible. (NonEnglish spoken)
21 Q However, in Islam am I correct that the ultimate
22 responsibility to question and make sure the action is correct
23 is the responsibility of every individual?
24 A Yes.
25 Q So just because the head of a country or even your imam
4668
1 says that something is mandated, it is still my responsibility
2 as a Muslim to determine whether or not that is correct.
3 A With the right evidence.
4 Q With the right evidence, sure.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And who is responsible for determining what is the right
7 evidence?
8 A A few people.
9 Q Is the individual --
10 A Also responsible, yes.
11 Q All right. In fact, not only is the individual
12 responsible but if everyone says one thing, I can't accept
13 anybody's word blindly, can I?
14 A Right.
15 Q I must question it regardless. If a fatwah is issued by
16 somebody and that person has scholarly support for that
17 fatwah, right, that doesn't get me off the hook as far as
18 gathering evidence on my own, does it?
19 A Right. But you said if he has scholarly evidence, if he
20 supports his position?
21 Q Right. I still have a duty to look into the scholarliness
22 of that evidence and determine who made it, on what they base
23 the opinion --
24 A Yes, yes.
25 Q By the way, is there a process whereby you get the title
4669
1 imam?
2 A No. I mean, you could graduate, go to Al Azhar University
3 and become an imam there. You can go around the corner and
4 call yourself imam with two followers if you like.
5 Q So when someone says an imam has told me this is
6 correct --
7 A It doesn't mean anything.
8 Q You have to ask who was it --
9 A More than who was it. See, that would be personality. It
10 doesn't matter who said it, but what is the evidence used to
11 support it. That's the most important thing.
12 Q Do you have a person whose teachings you follow, other
13 than the prophet?
14 A Who is teaching me?
15 Q Yes?
16 A Who has taught me or continues to teach me?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I have learned from many great scholars of Islam. One of
19 them I call him in Arabic Fiq, means Islamic law. I would
20 give him a nickname, big Fiq. He was from Egypt, Sheik Hamad.
21 He is one of the great scholars. He is one of my teachers.
22 There is another great scholar, named Sheik Dravad Abd Reis,
23 great scholar from Sudan. Another teacher -- I have learned
24 from some great scholars. They are my personal teachers.
25 Q Is there one person who speaks, one human that speaks for
4670
1 Islam?
2 A No. Presently? Presently, you mean?
3 Q Alive.
4 A Alive, no.
5 Q Is there one human being alive who speaks for all Arabs?
6 A All Arabs, no.
7 Q We should point out that all Arabs are not Muslims and all
8 Muslims are not Arabs.
9 A Exactly, yes.
10 Q In fact, a significant percentage of the Islamic
11 population is non-Arabic.
12 A Yes. In fact the Arab population is a minority in the
13 Muslim world. Talking about a very small percentage of the
14 Muslim population are actually Arabs.
15 Q There are many people who are classified as imam.
16 A Yes, sure.
17 Q And other than those who graduated from the university,
18 whether or not someone is an imam, worthy of that person's
19 respect and following, is determined by who?
20 A Ultimately determined by the people themselves.
21 Q The individual?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Does a person have to call himself an imam to be an imam?
24 A Does a person have to call themselves imam to be imam?
25 Q Yes. Does a person have to call himself imam to be
4671
1 recognized as the person who holds the knowledge to help
2 others to see the word?
3 A You see, anybody can call themselves imam.
4 Q That wasn't the question. It was the exact opposite of
5 that question. If I find someone who I believe is scholarly
6 and scholarly and has studied but he says don't call me imam,
7 I just try to be a good Muslim, I can ask that person for
8 assistance and understanding, can't I?
9 A Of course, yes.
10 Q Whether he calls himself sheik or whatever.
11 A Absolutely, you are right, yes.
12 (Continued on next page)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4672
1 MR. BAUGH: Excuse me, your Honor. Can we take a
2 10-minute break?
3 THE COURT: Yes, I was about to suggest that. We
4 will take our mid-morning recess.
5 (Jury excused)
6 THE COURT: When an objection was made and I did not
7 want it voiced in front of the jury, I suggested that it be
8 made in writing, and the record should reflect that I have not
9 received any written objections. We will take a five-minute
10 recess.
11 (Recess)
12 (Jury not present)
13 THE COURT: Mr. Baugh, do you have any idea how much
14 longer you have?
15 MR. BAUGH: Fifteen minutes, max.
16 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury.
17 (Jury present)
18 THE COURT: Mr. Baugh, you may continue.
19 MR. BAUGH: Thank you.
20 (Continued on next page)
21
22
23
24
25
4673
1 BY MR. BAUGH:
2 Q Imam, are you familiar with a scholar, former scholar,
3 Bukharah?
4 A B-U-K-H-A-R-A-H.
5 Q Are you?
6 A Yes, I am.
7 Q Did Bukharah --
8 A Maybe you mean a different Bukharah.
9 Q Let me make sure. He gathered sayings about the prophet?
10 A Yes, he is the same one, yes.
11 Q Did the prophet say that there cannot be infidels on the
12 land of the two shrines?
13 A On the land of?
14 Q The two shrines, the Arab Peninsula.
15 A Probably, yes. Yes.
16 Q This was allegedly -- I mean no disrespect. This was a
17 statement allegedly made by the prophet just before his death.
18 A I think so.
19 Q Should that be interpreted as a ban, a religious ban on
20 infidels living in what is now Saudi Arabia?
21 A Not Saudi Arabia but Mecca itself. It is called the
22 Hijjaz, Mecca, Medina, that area in there. It is called Holy
23 Land, yes.
24 Q Holy Land.
25 A Yes.
4674
1 Q If an emir or a state head comes across and says I
2 disagree with the prophet and I think it's OK to put troops of
3 a foreign nation in that area, and even though the head of the
4 state says that, to disagree or to resist that statement or
5 that practice, is it Islamically correct or incorrect?
6 A You got a problem.
7 Q I do?
8 A You do. Let me tell you the nature of the problem. The
9 way you are couching the question, no one, no Muslim ever
10 resists the prophet, period. No one, no Muslim would ever do
11 it. Other Muslims because of circumstances, right, might feel
12 as a result of the circumstances, even though the prophet gave
13 a prohibition there are some circumstances.
14 I will give an example. In Islam a man is not permit
15 to wear silk. Men cannot wear silk in Islam. But Prophet
16 Mohamed gave permission for a man named Babal to wear silk
17 because of his condition.
18 I will give another example. Muslims are not
19 permitted to eat pork, it is well known. But if a Muslim is
20 dying, starving, and the only food that is there is pork, he
21 must eat the pork to stay alive.
22 There are other examples like that. In Saudi Arabia,
23 though it is considered wrong to let nonMuslims go in the Holy
24 Land, according to the scholars, some Muslim scholars, because
25 of the circumstances they could allow some people to come
4675
1 there. So they would not be considered resisting the prophet,
2 but taking the unique circumstances and making a judgment
3 based on those conditions.
4 Q You say that a Muslim is required to resist that which he
5 knows to be wrong?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Up to his ability.
8 A Yes.
9 Q If all he can say is the word, he should resist that way.
10 A Yes.
11 Q If he can't even do that, he should think what is right.
12 A Exactly, yes.
13 Q If a Muslim is willing to die to correct that wrong, has
14 he committed suicide?
15 A If he is willing to die?
16 Q If he is willing to die to correct the wrong --
17 A Perhaps, because you know why, because there are other
18 statements that the prophet made. For instance, you know, in
19 some things that our leaders do, we may not like it, but
20 again, we cannot destroy the nation because of something
21 individually that we don't like, you see. So therefore, again
22 within our ability to change something, we should try to
23 strive as much as we can, but not to commit suicide.
24 Q But not to commit suicide. But every time a person dies
25 in a struggle, that is not suicide, is it?
4676
1 A No, of course not.
2 Q If as a good Muslim -- which I am not -- I believe that my
3 emir or my political leader is a puppet of an infidel power,
4 what is my obligation to that person, that human being who
5 wears the mantle of president?
6 A Yes. You know, you have to struggle within your system in
7 a way that you know how, in the way that you can to stop it,
8 the best way that you can.
9 Q The best way that you can?
10 A Yes. In a legal --
11 Q I didn't ask you anything.
12 A In way that is religiously legal.
13 Q Versus civically legal.
14 A Legal. I will say legal.
15 Q Do you personally believe as we sit here right now Arab
16 children are dying because of the sanctions?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you believe in the statistic that has been given that
19 every month approximately 4,500 children under the age of 5
20 die as a direct result of the sanctions imposed on Iraq?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Religiously, do you view the deaths of those children as a
23 wrong?
24 A As a what?
25 Q A wrong.
4677
1 A Yes.
2 Q Are those children because of their innocence when they
3 die, do they go to paradise?
4 A Yes. Because they are children.
5 Q Because they're children.
6 A Because they're children, you know, they are innocent
7 children, and there is the hadith of the prophet that said
8 that children will go to paradise.
9 Q In Muslim life, is the purpose of life to live as much
10 like Mohamed and Allah as you can?
11 A Not like Allah. Allah is God. We can't be like God.
12 Q To be as much like Mohamed as you can?
13 A Yes. We are taught in the Koran that Mohamed is what is
14 called (NonEnglish spoken). It's, we call it an example, like
15 a real model. Mohamed is a model citizen. So every Muslim
16 tries their best to live like that model Mohamed. By the way,
17 that same word is given to prophet Abraham in the Koran.
18 Abraham is also a model.
19 Q And other prophets as well.
20 A Yes.
21 Q And there are many prophets that Christians don't even
22 recognize as prophets.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Based on your interpretation of the life of Mohamed, would
25 he have given his life to correct a wrong?
4678
1 A Given his life to correct the wrong?
2 Q Why.
3 A Definitely. But this is the messenger of God, as Jesus
4 was the messenger of God and Abraham and Moses were the
5 messengers of God. All the prophets of God, in fact, give
6 their lives so that mankind can live.
7 Q When you say that you believe in the Bible --
8 A I believe in what Allah said in the Koran. I believe in
9 the Torah, which was revealed by God to Moses. I believe mm
10 in what we call the Injil in the Koran, or the gospel, that
11 was revealed to Jesus, the songs of David revealed to the
12 prophet David.
13 Q Do you believe that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and
14 killed everyone in those cities?
15 A I believe according to what we read in the Koran and what
16 we read to the Bible that God punished everyone in Sodom and
17 Gomorrah, yes.
18 MR. BAUGH: Thank you, your Honor. No further
19 questions.
20 THE COURT: Anything more from the defendants?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Very briefly, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Fitzgerald on behalf of the United
23 States.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
4679
1 Q Good afternoon, imam.
2 A Good afternoon.
3 Q I will be very brief. I realize the prophet Mohamed is no
4 longer with us. What is your understanding what the prophet
5 Mohamed would say about whether it is proper to drive a truck
6 into a building and blow up everyone inside?
7 MR. BAUGH: Objection, your Honor. It goes to the
8 ultimate issue.
9 THE COURT: I will sustain the objection but not on
10 the grounds stated. That is not the ultimate issue in this
11 case. The ultimate issue in this case is whether the
12 government has proven the guilt of the defendants of the
13 crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the ultimate issue
14 in this case, not what Mohamed would have thought or any other
15 entity other than this jury, based on the evidence in this
16 case, of the charges contained in the indictment under the
17 instructions that the court will give the jury as to the law.
18 That is the ultimate issue in this case.
19 Ask another question.
20 Q Imam, I am going to ask a different question, but if you
21 could wait to answer to make sure that the judge and defense
22 counsel rule it is proper. Did the prophet Mohamed say
23 anything or do anything in his lifetime to indicate that it
24 was Islamically correct to bomb buildings?
25 MR. BAUGH: Again, your Honor, same objection.
4680
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 A No, and I can give you an example contrary to that. I
3 remember when --
4 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, asked and answered.
5 THE COURT: Yes. You have answered the question. If
6 the government wants it will give us a followup question.
7 Q Can you give us an example of that?
8 A Yes.
9 (Laughter)
10 A I remember once reading that the prophet, he said he
11 doesn't believe, he doesn't believe, he doesn't believe, and
12 they said who, who doesn't believe. That Muslim whose
13 neighbor doesn't feel safe from his harm doesn't believe.
14 If you study the life of Prophet Mohamed, peace and
15 blessings be upon him, you will see the most gentle man. He
16 would never allow innocent people to die, never. Never.
17 Anyone who knows him, knows of his life would know that he
18 would never allow such a thing, never.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. Nothing further.
20 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I have one or two questions.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. RICCO:
24 Q Imam, we are almost done. I wanted to go to some
25 questions that Mr. Baugh raised so the jury has further
4681
1 context. Mr. Baugh talked about Muslims taking responsibility
2 for knowledge. Is there a difference between a Muslim who has
3 individual responsibility to learn versus individual
4 responsibility to then go out and act? Are those two
5 different concepts?
6 A Yes, two separate concepts, yes.
7 Q So, for example, when Mr. Baugh asked you a question about
8 individual responsibility to take hajj, when you take hajj and
9 prayer, you shouldn't have a pack of cigarettes in one pocket
10 and a wine bottle in the other.
11 A Right.
12 Q Is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q The individual must go out and do those two things in a
15 way that dignifies the religion and is consistent with the
16 teachings of the prophet Mohamed.
17 MR. BAUGH: Objection, leading.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 Q Is that correct?
20 A Yes, it is.
21 Q Mr. Baugh asked you a question, he asked you a
22 hypothetical about a person issuing fatwah and what the
23 individual person's responsibility -- OK. Let's say, for
24 example, hypothetically, a religious leader -- withdrawn -- a
25 leader issued a fatwah. Would it be the responsibility of a
4682
1 Muslim to travel to confer with that person about that fatwah
2 if that Muslim believed that that fatwah was asking him to do
3 something that was outside of the teachings of Islam and
4 against them?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Would the Muslim have the responsibility or the duty to do
7 that even if that fatwah was given in a country where that
8 Muslim was not present?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Mr. Baugh also asked you some questions about changing
11 oppressive conditions. You are familiar with the fact that
12 many Muslims went to Afghanistan.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Is that an example of changing conditions in that way?
15 A Yes.
16 Q I think you also talked to us about working within a legal
17 system.
18 A Yes.
19 Q A Muslim has an obligation to think, is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Just like any other religion.
22 A Yes.
23 Q To act appropriately?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And not to agree to do something that is morally wrong?
4683
1 A Yes.
2 Q In this nation we have something called conscientious
3 objection?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Status, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q In various religions people separate themselves from
8 participating in acts that they believe are inappropriate.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is that a concept that is singular to Islam?
11 A No.
12 Q Mr. Baugh asked you questions about who be an imam. You
13 have been the imam at Al-Taqwa for 20 years?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What different types of nationalities come to Al-Taqwa?
16 A African American, white European Americans, Hispanic
17 Americans, Arabs, Egyptians, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Chinese,
18 Bosnians, Algerian, Sudanese, Malians, Nigerians, Malaysia.
19 We have one Japanese. And more. Many.
20 Q Does this international make-up of people who attend
21 Al-Taqwa, is that done each week?
22 A Yes.
23 Q We asked you a question about bayat, and you said that
24 bayat was a pledge to follow a leader.
25 A Yes.
4684
1 Q Then you talked to us about an individual's commitment to
2 God.
3 A Yes.
4 Q What to a Muslim is a stronger and more important
5 commitment?
6 A What is what, sir?
7 Q Stronger and more commitment? Is it the bayat or the
8 commitment to God?
9 A It is absolutely the commitment to God. In fact, I will
10 go a step further. I don't really know the French terminology
11 but it is something like raison d'etre, which means the very
12 reason for existence is to worship God and to be obedient to
13 God, and this is substantiated in the Koran. (NonEnglish
14 spoken) I have only created spirits and human beings to
15 worship me. This is God speaking. Man's number one
16 obligation is to worship his creator.
17 Q Last question. Mr. Baugh asked you a series of questions
18 about the individual. There is a person's responsibility for
19 themselves in Islam.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Parents have responsibility for their children in Islam.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q As a community, we have responsibility to each other's
4685
1 families; isn't that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And as a nation, we have responsibility to our nation and
4 the world.
5 A Yes.
6 Q In Islam, is there a hierarchy of responsibility? Does
7 that exist?
8 A Yes.
9 Q In other words, there are people who you talk about that
10 imam or that leader that issues that fatwah. He has to be
11 careful what he says.
12 A Absolutely.
13 Q Because there be young people out there in the world would
14 jeopardize themselves and injure other people if he is not
15 acting responsibly.
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that's a reason why some people, when they issue
18 fatwahs, not only need to be but should be challenged.
19 A Yes.
20 Q For example, Mr. Baugh asked you about scholarship at
21 Al-Azhar University; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Sometimes graduates of Al-Azhar University advocate bank
24 robbery; is that correct?
25 A Yes.
4686
1 Q Did so in your mosque?
2 A Yes, they did.
3 Q You didn't graduate from Al-Azhar University?
4 A No, I didn't.
5 Q And when that happened in your mosque you stopped it.
6 A I said that is incorrect. I said with all due respect to
7 his scholarship that is wrong, and I gave my evidence, and the
8 scholar says what imam says is correct.
9 Q But that imam has a greater love of responsibility and
10 commitment and should have a greater love of commitment
11 because his words can be followed and can be misinterpreted;
12 is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. RICCO: Thank you very much.
15 THE COURT: Anything further?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Briefly, Judge.
17 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
19 Q Mr. Ricco asked you a question about how a Muslim properly
20 guided can't go to prayer and have cigarettes in one pocket
21 and alcohol in the other.
22 A Yes.
23 Q What if a properly guided Muslim is going to prayer. He
24 has nothing forbidden in his pockets, but he realizes a
25 brother walking with him going to prayer has cigarettes, has
4687
1 alcohol. What does he do?
2 A He will talk to him. He will suggest brother, you
3 shouldn't do that, you shouldn't go to prayer like that.
4 Q What if he is not sure if he has alcohol but he thinks he
5 does? What does he do?
6 A Let me tell you something the prophet said once, to answer
7 your question. He said that the great prophet Jesus was
8 looking at a man and the man, he stole something. And Jesus
9 said did you steal? The man said no, I swear to God, I didn't
10 steal. And the prophet Mohamed said that Jesus said
11 (nonEnglish) I believe in God but I deny my own eyes.
12 So, you know, we have to make excuses for one
13 another. I would rather make an excuse for my brother. If I
14 don't know, in our religion it is better to let a guilty
15 person go than punish an innocent person. So therefore I make
16 the assumption that I am wrong and somewhere along the line --
17 because it's wrong now to go and spy, and, you know, because
18 it looks like he got a wine bottle, the shape is like that.
19 So it's wrong now to go -- if he is not acting drunk, I
20 wouldn't say anything to him. I would let him come and pray.
21 Q But question is, do you ask him first? Do you ask him if
22 he has a wine bottle?
23 A If there is evidence, yes. In other words, if I just saw
24 a sign of it, wasn't sure, I wouldn't ask him. I only ask him
25 if I am sure he has a wine bottle.
4688
1 Q Wouldn't you be concerned that the Muslim brother might
2 drink the bottle, which he shouldn't be doing?
3 A Yes, but, see, there is a broader issue here, and I will
4 give you a example. Once the wife of the prophet, Yisha, she
5 said, oh Mohamed, there are some people that just became
6 Muslims and we don't know whether they slaughtered their meat
7 correctly, because as Muslims and Jews we have to slaughter
8 our meat in a certain way, so the blood have to come out. We
9 have to pronounce the name of God before they eat it. We not
10 sure if they pronounce the name of God. Just say bismallah,
11 say the name of God and eat it. So I think the lesson is
12 don't be -- because what happens is, you know, it's offensive
13 to say to someone listen, you don't know what you doing, you
14 know, so rather than do that -- I think the case is that if
15 you were suspicious of your brother with a wine bottle, you
16 don't want to accuse him. So you want to be very careful
17 about that. But if you knew that he had, you would take him
18 to the side and talk to him.
19 Q And you mentioned about how a leader in your mosque had
20 talked about robbing banks?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You obviously confronted him and challenged him and said
23 that's wrong.
24 A Yes.
25 Q Would it also be your duty if there were people going out
4689
1 to rob a bank, to stop those persons and say don't carry out
2 that act?
3 A I must do that. If I don't do that, I am derelict in my
4 responsibility. I have to do it. I have to stop them.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further. Thank you.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 (Witness excused)
8 THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
9 MR. RICCO: Yes, your Honor, the defense calls John
10 Anticev.
11 JOHN ANTICEV, recalled by the defense.
12 THE COURT: The court reminds you, sir, you are still
13 under oath.
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. RICCO:
16 Q Good morning, sir.
17 A Good morning.
18 Q Before you came today, you had an opportunity to go back
19 through your notes?
20 A I reviewed them briefly last night.
21 Q OK. First I wanted to start with Government's Exhibit 6,
22 which is the statement that you took from Mohamed during the
23 time period that he was in Kenya, Mohamed Odeh.
24 A Right.
25 Q OK?
4690
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can we agree that that statement does not contain every
3 word stated by Mohamed Odeh that appears in your notes, in
4 your handwritten notes?
5 A Yes, that would be safe to say.
6 Q Can we also agree that your notes themselves are not a
7 verbatim recording of everything that Mohamed Odeh said to
8 you?
9 A Verbatim, no.
10 Q Previously you had testified about an individual by the
11 name of Fahad, and either Mohamed Odeh's response or Mustafa's
12 response to Fahad.
13 A Yes.
14 Q I think that you said to us that Odeh indicated that he
15 didn't trust Fahad because Fahad knew nicknames and things of
16 that nature.
17 A Yes.
18 Q That's what you told us.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is it accurate to say that you made a mistake there?
21 A The way I testified to it, I believe that I said that
22 Mohamed Odeh was giving his firsthand opinion about Fahad, and
23 upon reviewing the notes that you talked about, it seemed that
24 that information came from that Mustafa was telling him about
25 Fahad, and he reported to me that Mustafa told him, but I
4691
1 think in my testimony I said that that was his ideas.
2 Q So just for the sake of clarity, when you previously
3 testified that it was Mohamed Odeh who distrusted Fahad
4 because of certain information, it would be more accurate to
5 say that it was Mohamed Odeh was explaining to you that it was
6 Mustafa who distrusted him because of that information.
7 A What I related was -- the way I remember it, it was that
8 when we talked about Fahad, Mohamed stated that Mustafa stated
9 the following things about him. Now, I don't know if that
10 translated to him feeling the same way. I thought it did, but
11 maybe it didn't.
12 Q We don't want you to testify about what you thought he
13 might have felt.
14 A Exactly, right.
15 Q We want to have testimony about what was said. Mohamed
16 also indicated to you notwithstanding the Mustafa information,
17 that he felt a little unwary of Fahad anyway; isn't that
18 correct?
19 A That was the impression I got.
20 Q But it was the specific attribution that was given by
21 Mustafa and not Mohamed.
22 A Yes.
23 Q I want to spend just a couple of minutes, not much, to
24 clarify the contact between Mustafa and Mohamed Odeh in the
25 spring, Mohamed Odeh and Fahad in the spring, and Mohamed Odeh
4692
1 and Saleh in the spring. And just so that the jury gets a
2 sense of the chronology before he left, Mohamed Odeh left
3 Mombasa to travel to Nairobi, OK.
4 Mohamed Odeh was visited by Mustafa, who came to him
5 with a message from Saleh; isn't that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that message was that Usama Bin Laden wanted them to
8 return to Afghanistan, especially Al Qaeda and Mujahideen.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And Mohamed asked him why are we leaving. This is what he
11 said to you, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And he was told that there was some emergency of some kind
14 but he didn't specify exactly what the emergency was at that
15 first meeting.
16 A Correct.
17 Q Mohamed assumed that this going back to Afghanistan would
18 involve his wife and his family. This is what he said to you.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Later on, Mohamed had another opportunity to meet with
21 Mustafa, OK, and at that second meeting Mustafa gave more
22 detail about this emergency; isn't that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q He indicated to Mohamed that Usama Bin Laden had declared
25 war against the American people; isn't that correct?
4693
1 A Yes.
2 Q And that he wanted all of the people to return back to
3 Afghanistan.
4 A Yes.
5 Q And there was a discussion between Mustafa and Mohamed as
6 to whether or not Al Qaeda was right in doing this.
7 A Yes.
8 Q And there was a discussion that there were even Al Qaeda
9 members in Afghanistan questioning Bin Laden about this
10 fatwah, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q During the conversation there was talk of whether or not
13 they would be up to taking on such an enemy like the United
14 States, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And I think Mustafa might have stayed at Mohamed's house
17 for one night and returned to Mombasa.
18 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, I object on the basis of
19 United States versus Lilly. If it is coming in without
20 cross-examination, I have to object and request an instruction
21 that these statements are limited in scope.
22 THE COURT: I am not sure I understand the objection.
23 MR. BAUGH: We would ask for a cautionary instruction
24 that the statements cannot be construed as against
25 Mr. Al-'Owhali, because Mr. Al-'Owhali cannot cross-examine.
4694
1 They were not made in furtherance of the conspiracy.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 Q Did Mohamed Odeh indicate to you that Mustafa stayed
4 overnight one night and then he went back to Mombasa?
5 A I don't know.
6 THE COURT: Excuse me one moment. Let me see counsel
7 and the reporter in the robing room.
8 (Continued on next page)
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4696
1 (Page 4695 sealed)
2 (In open court)
3 THE COURT: Two things. Agent, would you please
4 repeat your full name for the benefit of the jury.
5 THE WITNESS: John Anticev.
6 THE COURT: And do you remember when you previously
7 testified, what day it was?
8 MR. RICCO: It was the 27th and the 28th of February.
9 THE COURT: The other thing is, I misunderstood the
10 nature of the objection that was made by Mr. Baugh, and the
11 objection was well taken. I have previously told you, and I
12 will repeat it again in a written instruction, that a
13 statement by one alleged coconspirator may be considered with
14 respect to another alleged conspirator if it is made during
15 the course of a conspiracy and in furtherance of the
16 conspiracy. But once an alleged conspirator is arrested,
17 statements made after the arrest may be considered only with
18 respect to the speaker, because those are not statements made
19 in furtherance of the conspiracy. That individual's role in
20 the conspiracy ends when he is arrested. Therefore, the
21 testimony which is now being elicited with respect to
22 statements made by the defendant Odeh to the agent following
23 his arrest may be considered only with respect to Odeh and may
24 not be considered with respect to the other defendants.
25 MR. RICCO: Thank you, your Honor. Your Honor, I
4697
1 would like to approach the witness with 3500 material for
2 Agent Anticev.
3 BY MR. RICCO:
4 Q Agent, having looked at this document, does it help
5 refresh your recollection as to whether or not Mohamed Odeh
6 told you that Mustafa stayed that night and then went back to
7 Mombasa?
8 A Yes, that is correct.
9 Q Last question with respect to Mustafa: Did Mohamed Odeh
10 indicate to you that it was on or about August 1 that he was
11 in Mombasa and Mustafa gave him some money to travel with?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Mohamed asked why was he traveling that day. There was
14 question even that day about whether or not Mohamed would
15 still have to travel; isn't that correct?
16 A Yes, I believe so.